Author Topic: [IMPLEMENTED] Changing couple unbalanced weapons  (Read 6454 times)

Offline noD3

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[IMPLEMENTED] Changing couple unbalanced weapons
« on: 14 05, 2019, 08:03:42 pm »
    Back in the time, LS and LV Combat style meta ( In the world of gaming, meta can be used as an acronym for “most effective tactics available,” ) used to be the same, even if the gameplay was different, such as the speed of the gameplay. After years have passed by the CIT Weapons meta has evolved and various updates were introduced to the server. However I am not happy how that went to, since nowadays weapons meta is all about spamming weapons which have high fire rate, such as Minigun, M4 or Tec-9, these weapons are heavily overpowered for people who have good computers, since higher FPS means higher fire rate. From my point of view weapons meta should be something about skill and ability to aim rather than to spam one weapon and easily kill new players who have no clue what is happening in the server. Me myself and a lot of older players of the server would agree, that the weapon meta that existed back in 2012 was much better and more skill advanced than it is now.

    Current system is based on holding your finger and spam either AK or MP5, you would not be able to run anyways and get killed. New players who still do not know about drugs have a hard time killing someone or escpaing from someone, which makes not stay in the server for a long time ( Why would anyone stay in the server if all they do is dying and being unable to kill someone? That's not fun... )

    Here I would like to provide some statistical data to prove my that my statements are true.
    • 56% of the players have less FPS than 50, which means that 44% players have fps above 50, which makes the statement that more thanm half of the players are having lower fps which makes their shooting slower.
      • Proofs :
        Show content
        Quote
        *** Frames Per Second ***

        Below 10: 333
        Below 20: 123
        Below 30: 237
        Below 40: 335
        Below 50: 589
        Above 50: 1267
    • The most used weapons are mostly the most overpowered because it is easiest to kill with them
      • Proofs :
        Show content
        Quote
        *** Amount of deaths for each weapon (outside LV)***

        M4: 9492
        Shotgun: 4191
        Sniper: 4039
        Minigun: 3580
        AK-47: 2918


    I have tested each weapons damage with and without drugs and the kill time when shooting to the body, keep in mind that when shooting to the head it's even 25% faster which makes high accuracy weapons like m4 very easy to hit headshots.

    Here are the results of my testings :
    Show content
    Quote

    CIT Weapons Damage

    ------------------
    Colts - 20
    Colts against drugs - 16
    Time to kill against drugs and full armor : 06.400 seconds
    ------------------
    Deagle - 47
    Deagle against drugs - 34
    Time to kill against drugs and full armor : 04.833 seconds
    -----------------
    Combat Shotgun - 40
    Combat Shotgun against drugs - 29
    Time to kill against drugs and full armor : 04.352 seconds
    -----------------
    Shotgun - 60
    Shotgun against Drugs - 43
    Time to kill against drugs and full armor : 03.072 seconds
    -----------------
    Single Sawn Off - 50
    Single Sawn Off against Drugs - 36
    Time to kill against drugs and full armor : 06.720 seconds
    -----------------
    Double Sawn Off - 47
    Double Sawn Off against Drugs - 40
    Time to kill against drugs and full armor : 09.698 seconds
    -----------------
    Mp5 - 10
    Mp5 against drugs - 7
    Time to kill against drugs and full armor : 03.778 seconds
    -----------------
    Double Tec9 - 14
    Double Tec9 against drugs - 10
    Time to kill against drugs and full armor : 02.497 seconds
    -----------------
    Double Uzi - 14
    Double Uzi against drugs - 10
    Time to kill against drugs and full armor : 03.136 seconds
    -----------------
    M4 - 14
    M4 against drugs - 10
    Time to kill against drugs and full armor : 03.104 seconds
    -----------------
    ak47 - 14
    ak47 against drugs - 10
    Time to kill against drugs and full armor : 02.661 seconds
    -----------------
    Sniper - 60
    Sniper against drugs - 43
    Time to kill against drugs and full armor : 05.730 seconds
    -----------------
    Rifle - 32
    Rifle against drugs - 23
    Time to kill against drugs and full armor : 04.482 seconds
    -----------------
    Minigun - 7
    Minigun against drugs - 6
    Time to kill against drugs and full armor : 04.097 seconds
    -----------------

    Basically it does show that weapons like Tec9, m4, uzi, ak47 are the fastest ones to kill someone.

    Here are the changes I would like to see implemented that I believe would make CIT better :
    • New Tec9
      Show content
      Current Tec9 damage - 7 Hitpoints
      Proposed Tec9 damage -  4.5 Hitpoints
      Tec9 damage should decrease by  35%
      Time to kill against drugs and full armor : Around ~3.204 seconds
    • New Uzi
      Show content
      Current Uzi damage - 7 hitpoints
      Proposed Uzi damage - 4.5 Hitpoints
      Uzi damage should be decreased by 35%
      Time to kill against drugs and full armor : Around ~ 03.536 seconds
    • New M4
      Show content
      Current M4 damage - 14 hitpoints
      Proposed M4 damage - 10 hitpoints
      M4 damage should be decreased by 28%
      Accuracy should be worse by 20%
      Clip size should be changed to 35 bullets from 50 bullets.
      Time to kill against drugs and full armor : Around ~ 03.704 seconds
    • New AK-47
      Show content
      Current AK47 damage - 14 hitpoints
      Proposed AK47 damage - 10 hitpoints
      AK47 damage should be decreased by 28%
      Time to kill against drugs and full armor : Around ~ 03.101 seconds
    • New Shotgun
      Show content
      Current Shotgun damage - 60 hitpoints
      Proposed Shotgun damage - 50 hitpoints
      Shotgun damage should be decreased by 16.6%
      Time to kill against drugs and full armor : Around ~ 03.772 seconds
    • New Minigun
      Show content
      Current Minigun Damage - 7 hitpoints
      Proposed Minigun Damage - 5 hitpoints
      Minigun damage sohuld be decreased by 28%
      Time to kill against drugs and full armor : Around ~ 04.801 seconds





    The proposal was brought to you by
    @JayXxX and @noD3 councillor's agenda

    [/list]
    « Last Edit: 19 05, 2019, 12:39:34 pm by Arran »

    Offline Arran

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    Here, I will provide the the damage and the clip size of weapons I would like to see changed, my expectations are realistic fast fights. Everything was tested in a private server with keeping in mind that drugs in CIT exist.

    I'm guessing this is work in progress? Since it doesn't state clip size and I don't know if the damage you've put is what damage is done in MTA by default or what.
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    Offline JimMys

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    Good work...
    BUT you forgot a factor that can destroy your research and it's called ''Armor'' . You said that needs only 6 bullets to kill one guy with spas, I agree with you. Never happens. You both have armor, thats mean 250HP and not 150HP. That's mean that AK/M4 spammer will kill you when you faced him with SPAS. Thanks to the new shotgun, in close distance you can kill these M4 users even if they have their armor, that's why they are crying and spam ''wtf is that shit''. I got tired to die when I played with SPAS against these M4 users, now I enjoy it.

    In my personal view, I really liked the new armor by arran, helmet and vest because changed totally the gameplay (less HP, yes SPAS could win M4~close distance always)
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    Offline noD3

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    I'm guessing this is work in progress? Since it doesn't state clip size and I don't know if the damage you've put is what damage is done in MTA by default or what.
    The clip size is defined near every weapon by "clip".

    And yes this is only the phase one of the proposal because before making the "final" one I want to hear other councilors ideas on this matter, since we have councilors from different "sides" of the game ( LV, LS, Law Players ). The only damage that I would recall default in MTA would be deagle's damage which is ~46



    Good work...
    BUT you forgot a factor that can destroy your research and it's called ''Armor'' . You said that needs only 6 bullets to kill one guy with spas, I agree with you. Never happens. You both have armor, thats mean 250HP and not 150HP. That's mean that AK/M4 spammer will kill you when you faced him with SPAS. Thanks to the new shotgun, in close distance you can kill these M4 users even if they have their armor, that's why they are crying and spam ''wtf is that shit''. I got tired to die when I played with SPAS against these M4 users, now I enjoy it.

    In my personal view, I really liked the new armor by arran, helmet and vest because changed totally the gameplay (less HP, yes SPAS could win M4~close distance always)

    While proposing this I had number 180 in my mind, since this is what we get with full hp and all drugs and their resistances enabled. Also that is the damage they should be receiving when shot in the body, do not forget that when you hit a headshot you do more damage, so my calculations were made of hits shot to the body.

    I did not count armor in this one because from my own experience in fighting most of the times you fight someone who does not have armor.

    Offline JimMys

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    I did not count armor in this one because from my own experience in fighting most of the times you fight someone who does not have armor.
    Almost all server has DL1 and respawn with armor dude, what are you saying...


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    Offline noD3

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    Almost all server has DL1 and respawn with armor dude, what are you saying...



    Have you played in LV and respawned in a turf? Or fought outside the respawns location, like in the middle of Los Santos when there is no time to wait 5 seconds of freeze time to craft armor?

    Offline JimMys

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    Yes, when you are into a teamfight 10vs10, it's not so hard to find 5 seconds to hide yourself for crafting armor. I am sorry but I can't accept your research because HP is different as I said above.
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    Offline Dredd

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    Weapon system is not balanced, it's ok but I don't think it is in the right spot yet. Have in mind there are other factors in cit like weapon mods, ammo capacity, food, drugs, medics, (I think we have a range in sniper),running weapons disabled, what about on team-fighting, what about ranges in cit maps etc.. and there is LV and LS!

    It's very difficult to come up with a balanced system since you need to change everything all the time and have someone who is equally good fighting with you.

    What I could think it will make things balanced is an automated dynamic script that will tweak certain values on each weapon based on the percentage of the total kills of each weapon every day/week for example and like say in the script:

    I want 1/2 of kills be with m4 and 1/2 with ak. (assault) for each LS/LV
    2/3 with deagle 3/8 with colt 1/8 with tazer for each town... etc

    Of course some values like ammo capacity could stay fixed and change other factors of stats on the weapons based on the kill stats, and it is even more complex than that since some weapons are used more in the start of the fight and players tend to use other weapons to kill/end their enemy so we still need to have this in mind.


    Offline noD3

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    Weapon system is not balanced, it's ok but I don't think it is in the right spot yet. Have in mind there are other factors in cit like weapon mods, ammo capacity, food, drugs, medics, (I think we have a range in sniper),running weapons disabled, what about on team-fighting, what about ranges in cit maps etc.. and there is LV and LS!

    It's very difficult to come up with a balanced system since you need to change everything all the time and have someone who is equally good fighting with you.
    This is why we tested this with my group mate on our private server with both having equal both of everything, if we had all drugs, medkits and all other stuff enabled results wouldn't really change.

    What I could think it will make things balanced is an automated dynamic script that will tweak certain values on each weapon based on the percentage of the total kills of each weapon every day/week for example and like say in the script:

    I want 1/2 of kills be with m4 and 1/2 with ak. (assault) for each LS/LV
    2/3 with deagle 3/8 with colt 1/8 with tazer for each town... etc


    You can't have this since people have different combat styles, some people prefer to use running weapons, some people prefer to keep his opponent on a long distance fight.



    Yes, when you are into a teamfight 10vs10, it's not so hard to find 5 seconds to hide yourself for crafting armor. I am sorry but I can't accept your research because HP is different as I said above.

    This is one of the reasons why you were losing most of the team fights, other than that you are a councillor and please if you took your time to apply for one, take your time to discuss the proposals right.
    I will help you with the math to understand what having armor will change : If combat shotgun takes around 6 bullets to kill someone who has drugs, then it means it will take around 10 bullets to kill someone who has armor, which is 66% more, single sawn off would be 6 bullets instead of 4 which is 50% more, so as you can see , all the calculations were made fair in my opinion, and by having armor it gives you a little more survivability, but it does not make huge impact and is pretty much same, since the weapons used will remain same depending on the circumstances how and where you are fighting with your opponent

    Offline Brian

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    You also forgot accuracy. As I was discussing with Arran on Discord, Shotgun is total crap on far distance. If you compare it with spas on damage factor, you obviously have an OP weapon, yet if you shoot a player 1 meter more far, you might end up with an istant halving of damage. With spas you can hit a player even if they are far and still deal significant damage.

    Want more? You can't crouch with shotgun as I had to block it due to MTA bug that makes you stand up after finishing an animation if you were crouched. Reloading shotgun freezes you because animations get you stuck, in 1.30 seconds while your animation is performing you are 100% defenseless.

    Even more... how do players use a weapon? I was watching a gunfight and shotgun is basically used as a new Sniper or new Deagle to give a final shot. You lower a player's health to 20-30hp and end them with an OP weapon that stops others to kill-steal you or stops the victim from using lame-as-fuck running around objects tactic to heal back.

    I'll look into recording how many points or maybe bullets do weapon use.
    « Last Edit: 14 05, 2019, 11:26:12 pm by Brian »

    Offline noD3

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    You also forgot accuracy. As I was discussing with Arran on Discord, Shotgun is total crap on far distance. If you compare it with spas on damage factor, you obviously have an OP weapon, yet if you shoot a player 1 meter more far, you might end up with an istant halving of damage. With spas you can hit a player even if they are far and still deal significant damage.

    Want more? You can't crouch with shotgun as I had to block it due to MTA bug that makes you stand up after finishing an animation if you were crouched. Reloading shotgun freezes you because animations get you stuck.
    My next proposal I am going to post is going to be a test server, which would be VERY useful to experiment proposals like this and get best results with all the features like CIT has such as drugs with health resistance, accuracy of the weapons ( Genuinely I don't even know how that is counted )

    Offline Dredd

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    Testing the stuff on your private server is not the same

    it's a lot different a fight when 2 players are using drugs and when 2 players aren't using any of drugs, actually.

    A quick example, spaz has 7 ammo, if you play with no drugs you don't need reload if you are good at aim, if you play with drugs you need to reload a lot of times.
    With drugs player have the ability to run and hide behind corners etc etc.

    It's logical to say it's 2 different gameplays though even if you manage to stabilize weapons in 1v1 situation in your private server it won't be what CIT needs. I am not saying that your stuff are useless but more like a generic trend.


    Offline noD3

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    Re: [PROPOSAL]Changing couple unbalanced weapons
    « Reply #12 on: 17 05, 2019, 09:15:50 pm »
    I have improved the topic with the testings from CIT server, instead of changing quite a lot of guns I only proposed to change the ones who are most unbalanced ones.

    Please councillors state your opinions.

    Offline JimMys

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    Re: [PROPOSAL]Changing couple unbalanced weapons
    « Reply #13 on: 17 05, 2019, 09:28:07 pm »
    It's good idea to decrease M4 clip to 25 from 50.
    Everyone will use AK then because they prefer spamming a weapon instead of aiming. It could be fixed too this one later.
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    Offline noD3

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    Re: [PROPOSAL]Changing couple unbalanced weapons
    « Reply #14 on: 17 05, 2019, 09:41:11 pm »
    It's good idea to decrease M4 clip to 25 from 50.
    Everyone will use AK then because they prefer spamming a weapon instead of aiming. It could be fixed too this one later.
    I just realized that 25 is too small clip size , maybe 40? @JimMys$ I mean the damage is already reduced