[Forum] Remove IR board and add back Unfainess Cases.

[Goku Black]

What about Administrative Complaints?

[Senza]

What about Administrative Complaints?

People shouldn't complain admins because of locking their topic, not handling the complaints the way they want, to be honest, I see administrative complaints being abused and totally misused in the IR board, so an unfairness case (if it's really unfair) it could be an administrative complaint, imo.

[Nikos]

People shouldn't complain admins because of locking their topic, not handling the complaints the way they want, to be honest, I see administrative complaints being abused and totally misused in the IR board, so an unfairness case (if it's really unfair) it could be an administrative complaint, imo.

Exactly. If Unfairness Case addresses a blatantly unfair action of a staff then that instantly becomes an administrative complaint against that staff. Multiple cases of such actions by a certain staff member should be reviewed by staff management in order to take the proper actions.

[Goku Black]

I was talking about Administrative Complaints board specifically.

Injustice Resolution was never really created, it was renamed like that from another board, which is Administrative Complaints. Unfairness Cases used to be a thing, then were removed. That board was never removed, it was replaced. Don't confuse the two. The only reason it was done so was because of the negligence from the High/Head Staff of that time, like taking too long to handle cases. I do not wish to judge anyone because sometimes things do take time, but PAMs also sometimes take over a week or so to finalize the cases, so that's the point I'm trying to make here.

Another thing, I would like to point out that Unfairness Cases shouldn't be used to extend ban appeals. I've already made it so with Injustice Resolution, because of people continuing to make topics there instead of submitting a 2nd/3rd Opinion Appeal or just contacting BAML if no BAM/Staff issuing the ban couldn't have cleared their doubts. I do not warn for sending me PMs, so I have no idea why people don't do just that. Most cases are regarding bans like chargeback/cyberbullying, something we rarely unban for, the first one being issued by Administrators and thus, only they can decide whether to remove it or not. Not to mention, 3 out of 5 members of the Head Staff are officially BAMs, including BAML, and considering L5s can act as PAM also, there's no point in that. If a person believes that we BAMs are treating someone unfairly, and that even my final verdict as BAML is unfair to them, then only Administrator should have a saying over that to avoid an endless cycle of repetition and any conflicts of interest.

Having 2 teams with the same purpose would cause drama, problems and pointless verdicts that can be overruled by the other team.

Exactly. Why would we need 2 teams when 1 team used to do both jobs efficiently?

That's precisely what I'm saying.

To conclude, if Unfairness Cases are to be added back, Injustice Resolution should be renamed back to Administrative Complaints for special cases where only L4/L5+ would be able to deal with such and Administrators would have a final saying over the matter where L5 is already involved/complained against.

[Nikos]

But even serious administrative complaints with non-staff IRS, were handled by staff. So even if we just bring unfairness cases and let people address complaints against staff members there, if the case is that serious that can't be handled by PAMs then high level staff can interfere and help the situation exactly how it's currently working with IR board, where it receives administrative complaints too.

[Brian]

Seeing at how petty IR cases are, starting from "X staff didn't unban me -> I open an IR" to "Arran locked my suggestion/discussion" and seeing at how (my impression) some of Punishment appeals are being handled with random excuses just to remove punishments (still, my impression based on complaints from staff), I wouldn't like "players" to handle complaints from "players" to "staff".

You can also see my replies in the topic you've quoted on first post.

[Nikos]

On a side-note to people who would like to vote, Brian is correct. There are cases where staff tend to missunderstand the current purpose of the staff team. Which was made to validate/invalidate punishments only based on some vague rules and not based on the context for the shake of appearing consistent. But as I said in my main post, I think we can implement the system better this time for the best interest of CIT. Just like Arran mentioned in this exact case: https://cit.gg/index.php?topic=347221.0 . If IRS could manage this case based on the context then it would be the best to go "against" the rules for the best solution. I can privately link many similar cases to any high staff who is considering the system I suggested and with some communication we can establish a better system which will cause less confusion.

[UlasDO]

Seeing at how petty IR cases are, starting from "X staff didn't unban me -> I open an IR" to "Arran locked my suggestion/discussion" and seeing at how (my impression) some of Punishment appeals are being handled with random excuses just to remove punishments (still, my impression based on complaints from staff), I wouldn't like "players" to handle complaints from "players" to "staff".

You can also see my replies in the topic you've quoted on first post.

Rename IR to Administrative Complaints which should be a more serious board, questioning if a staff should still be staff, all L5's should be able to handle the topic there, IRS should no longer exist, add unfairness cases back, make it about the "petty cases" as you refer to it.

I think that's the best way to solve this all, @Brian thoughts?

[Brand]

Having 6 or 5 individuals handling stuff together is indeed much better, at least the response could be a lot faster when it comes to extreme unfair cases that bring frustration to players, I have been noticing that some IR cases take too much to be handled, but I get how much stress it puts on whoever in charge of it, UlasDo has done his best. Concerning the administrative complaints, they should have their respective board, besides there have to be some rational circumstances under which someone can complain Staff, the same should apply to unfairness cases so nobody takes advantage of it because we will surely see some ludicrous cases. And it's not up to me to decide by whom administrative complaints should be handled, of course, it's not within an average player with whatever authority to handle them so that's unlikely to happen. Above all that, I don't see much difference between IR and unfairness case systems, they both serve the same purpose.

Current PAMs alongside the new addition (UlasDo, since he hasn't resigned and wasn't laid off his position can be changed to PAM) it will double the efficiency and work amongst PAMs in order to provide the best for players, it's all meant to be for fun after all and in which case it shouldn't get that political!

[Western]

5 to 6 is definitely better than one person. Amount of stress it puts on a person as well, it is way less because as a group of 6 they will work efficiently coming up with a decision with less stress Id say. Nikos mentioned before how he didn’t really have anything is his abilities to do much and how stressful it was for him to handle such complaints being posted every day. Bottomline: 6 is better than one person, definitely. I know I already posted but I felt like I wanted to post more about this because it’s been occurring lately that IRs are not handled that well.

[Backsage]

Maybe it would be better to have two boards, one for reporting serious cases of staff abuse (i.e. abusing staff features) and another for unfairness cases. Though, the board for reporting serious staff abuses would probably be empty because that is pretty rare. The unfairness cases on the other hand could have more activity. So you could have Administrative Complaints and Unfairness Cases boards. The only reason we might still need Administrative Complaints board is because of in the rare event someone does end up abusing staff features. Something to think about.

[Thunder]

I am checking IR continuously to see the cases and issues between the Players and the administrators and see how they solve these cases in official way.

Every time I see that the current system in IR board is not the best but it's decent and I liked it and I want to talk about many situations, I made Topic in IR board before when I got denied for RCM rank and I saw a very kind treatment from Rami and Goku_Black and especially Nikos, I know that they denied the appeal but they make me understand everything about the case in official and modest way.

the second situation was with Carvajal, he got denied for RCM and he made topic in IR board and they contacted with him in the topic and they gave the rank to him in the end without any problem and they understood that he deserve the rank and gave it to him simply!

the third situation is with omer and after locking his application topic for JCM , the staff opened it again when he released that he was wrong.

the fourth situation with angels, Brand entered the topic and posted to support angels and this is something I am really happy to see, seeing honorable staff like brand supporting a player because he know that that player deserve the rank.

the current system is decent for me, and I think if the system has some problems that doesn't mean that we should remove it, we should edit it and make it strongly more with the same work and behavior from everyone.

We see many topics about FFM team and xCM system, so we should not remove the board , we should see where is the problem in the rules of forum ranks and how we can solve it and not removing the whole board.

[Arran]

Added.