Author Topic: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?  (Read 3555 times)

Offline Nyle

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #15 on: 13 02, 2021, 06:36:46 pm »
In such troubled times and wars, my personal opinion is that no citizen should have a weapon.
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Offline PetroSailor

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #16 on: 14 02, 2021, 02:35:50 am »
I'm not looking at a bunch of pictures posted by a non-US citizen trying to argue his point based on biased US statistics.

More guns = less incentive to commit a crime.
More guns = higher chance of being shot while committing a crime.
More guns = safer communities
More guns = less chance of a tyrannical government or at least a decent chance at fighting back

The sanity argument is bullshit, similar to the rape abortion argument. Legitimate shootings (not orchestrated by the government) rarely ever happen.
US having the most shootings is also obviously going to happen considering it's population.

Also the "I will just kill the robber" solution is just so stupid. You can't just take someone's life because he robs you, holy shit do we live in middle ages or smth? Just let him take whatever he wants from your house and call the police. There are several coverages that can even replace every single item that has been stolen from you.

Who said you have to kill the robber? If a gun was pointed at my face while robbing someone's home or store, I'd leave immediately. Also who said the robber was a man? That's sexist. Not only that, if you've ever spoken to someone in the US who had something robbed from them, especially from their home, they'll tell you they received little no nothing in return from the police or their insurance company (if they even had insurance). The police have bigger fish to fry, like homicides and large scale robberies.

If the US gov wants to take guns from people, a civil war will ensue. There's no way around it.

If the US gov bans the purchasing of guns, or enforces more strict gun ownership laws, criminals will still get them just as easily. Believe it or not, criminals don't obey the law.

In such troubled times and wars, my personal opinion is that no citizen should have a weapon.

You don't know anything about wars, or guns, or troubled times. Guns are the most important entity you should own during any semi-hostile environment.

I've owned and been shooting guns since I was 12 years old. My family and everyone in my home state has done the same. Nothing even remotely negative has happened with our relationships with firearms. Drugged up, city gang bangers shooting each other in the head because they're wearing a different color than themselves is another situation I'd be happy to enlighten you all about.

Offline Denos

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #17 on: 14 02, 2021, 05:08:57 am »
I'm not looking at a bunch of pictures posted by a non-US citizen trying to argue his point based on biased US statistics.

More guns = less incentive to commit a crime.
More guns = higher chance of being shot while committing a crime.
More guns = safer communities
More guns = less chance of a tyrannical government or at least a decent chance at fighting back

The sanity argument is bullshit, similar to the rape abortion argument. Legitimate shootings (not orchestrated by the government) rarely ever happen.
US having the most shootings is also obviously going to happen considering it's population.

Who said you have to kill the robber? If a gun was pointed at my face while robbing someone's home or store, I'd leave immediately. Also who said the robber was a man? That's sexist. Not only that, if you've ever spoken to someone in the US who had something robbed from them, especially from their home, they'll tell you they received little no nothing in return from the police or their insurance company (if they even had insurance). The police have bigger fish to fry, like homicides and large scale robberies.

If the US gov wants to take guns from people, a civil war will ensue. There's no way around it.

If the US gov bans the purchasing of guns, or enforces more strict gun ownership laws, criminals will still get them just as easily. Believe it or not, criminals don't obey the law.

You don't know anything about wars, or guns, or troubled times. Guns are the most important entity you should own during any semi-hostile environment.

I've owned and been shooting guns since I was 12 years old. My family and everyone in my home state has done the same. Nothing even remotely negative has happened with our relationships with firearms. Drugged up, city gang bangers shooting each other in the head because they're wearing a different color than themselves is another situation I'd be happy to enlighten you all about.

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Online Dimit

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #18 on: 14 02, 2021, 06:49:28 am »
I'm not looking at a bunch of pictures posted by a non-US citizen trying to argue his point based on biased US statistics.

More guns = less incentive to commit a crime.
More guns = higher chance of being shot while committing a crime.
More guns = safer communities
More guns = less chance of a tyrannical government or at least a decent chance at fighting back

The sanity argument is bullshit, similar to the rape abortion argument. Legitimate shootings (not orchestrated by the government) rarely ever happen.
US having the most shootings is also obviously going to happen considering it's population.

Who said you have to kill the robber? If a gun was pointed at my face while robbing someone's home or store, I'd leave immediately. Also who said the robber was a man? That's sexist. Not only that, if you've ever spoken to someone in the US who had something robbed from them, especially from their home, they'll tell you they received little no nothing in return from the police or their insurance company (if they even had insurance). The police have bigger fish to fry, like homicides and large scale robberies.

If the US gov wants to take guns from people, a civil war will ensue. There's no way around it.

If the US gov bans the purchasing of guns, or enforces more strict gun ownership laws, criminals will still get them just as easily. Believe it or not, criminals don't obey the law.

You don't know anything about wars, or guns, or troubled times. Guns are the most important entity you should own during any semi-hostile environment.

I've owned and been shooting guns since I was 12 years old. My family and everyone in my home state has done the same. Nothing even remotely negative has happened with our relationships with firearms. Drugged up, city gang bangers shooting each other in the head because they're wearing a different color than themselves is another situation I'd be happy to enlighten you all about.
All graphics provided by me prove each letter in your post wrong
Like, I dont even have to add any text, there is nothing to be said because the images above literally do the job by themselves

You keep trying to justify gun ownership while all graphs and statistics obviously prove that your country is totally out of control with gun violence and how your people are dying like ants because of it
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Offline OhhKarim

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #19 on: 14 02, 2021, 09:58:03 am »
As a board moderator of the debate board, Dimit should know that posting stuff like "just check my graph lulz ez" is not debating, it's a useless reply as it doesn't add any value to the debate.

I already explained to him that his graphs are from 2010 which are very outdated, as countries such as the Czech Republic was the 2nd highest on his graph in 2010, yet when I checked recent statistics from 2017 it has been way lower than many other higher-developed countries. Secondly, he keeps cherry picking certain countries to try to fit his narrative. I stumbled across a site that took the words right out of my mouth regrading that statement, so in stead of writing it twice, you can read it here;

Much of the political thinking about violence in the United States comes from unfavorable comparisons between the United States and a series of cherry-picked countries with lower murder rates and with fewer guns per capita. We’ve all seen it many times. The United States, with a murder rate of approximately 5 per 100,000 is compared to a variety of Western and Central European countries (also sometimes Japan) with murder rates often below 1 per 100,000. This is, in turn, supposed to fill Americans with a sense of shame and illustrate that the United States should be regarded as some sort of pariah nation because of its murder rate.

Note, however, that these comparisons always employ a carefully selected list of countries, most of which are very unlike the United States. They are  countries that were settled long ago by the dominant ethnic group, they are ethnically non-diverse today, they are frequently very small countries (such as Norway, with a population of 5 million) with very locally based democracies (again, unlike the US with an immense population and far fewer representatives in government per voter). Politically, historically, and demographically, the US has little in common with Europe or Japan.

Prejudice about the "Developed World" vs "the Third World"
 
But these are the only countries the US shall be compared to, we are told, because the US shall only be compared to “developed” countries when analyzing its murder rate and gun ownership.
And yet, no reason for this is ever given. What is the criteria for deciding that the United States shall be compared to Luxembourg but not to Mexico, which has far more in common with the US than Luxembourg in terms of size, history, ethnic diversity, and geography?


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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #20 on: 14 02, 2021, 11:03:12 am »
As a board moderator of the debate board, Dimit should know that posting stuff like "just check my graph lulz ez" is not debating, it's a useless reply as it doesn't add any value to the debate.

I already explained to him that his graphs are from 2010 which are very outdated, as countries such as the Czech Republic was the 2nd highest on his graph in 2010, yet when I checked recent statistics from 2017 it has been way lower than many other higher-developed countries. Secondly, he keeps cherry picking certain countries to try to fit his narrative. I stumbled across a site that took the words right out of my mouth regrading that statement, so in stead of writing it twice, you can read it here;
I mean if Americans themselves want to compare with the favelas of Brazil and Columbia about the firearm related death rate just to excuse their gun violence then ok but don't expect anyone to get you seriously after doing that lol.
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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #21 on: 14 02, 2021, 01:21:12 pm »
As a board moderator of the debate board, Dimit should know that posting stuff like "just check my graph lulz ez" is not debating, it's a useless reply as it doesn't add any value to the debate.

I already explained to him that his graphs are from 2010 which are very outdated, as countries such as the Czech Republic was the 2nd highest on his graph in 2010, yet when I checked recent statistics from 2017 it has been way lower than many other higher-developed countries. Secondly, he keeps cherry picking certain countries to try to fit his narrative. I stumbled across a site that took the words right out of my mouth regrading that statement, so in stead of writing it twice, you can read it here;
All graphics provided in my post above are a direct response to each paragraph of your post and simple enough that even a 1st grader can understand them, they are facts and not something that can be debated like an "opinion" and they do not require any further comments or explanation to be understood because that would just be unneccessary text, or as you call it, text without value
All data in the graphics is valid for the current date, not cherry picked and representative
You keep trying to convince people of something which is simply wrong and all data and logical arguments speak against your theory

These 6 images debunk any of yours, denos and petrosailors attempts to make it look like firearm ownership is a good thing while in reality, it turns the US is even a more deadly warzone than Iraq or Afghanistan and the only country you managed to compare the US to in favour of your argument is brazil, the country where a large part of the population earns their money off of armed robberies


Btw interesting source of your quote
The Mises Institute has been criticized by some libertarians for the paleolibertarian and right-wing cultural views of some of its leading figures, on topics such as race, immigration, and the presidential campaigns of Donald Trump.


I'm not looking at a bunch of pictures posted by a non-US citizen trying to argue his point based on biased US statistics.
It is a common thing for trump supporters to deny data and facts but dont complain afterwards that noone gave you the chance to look at real numbers
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Offline OhhKarim

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #22 on: 15 02, 2021, 11:14:07 am »
According to this 82 guns that were involved in the mass shootings were obtained legally in the US now process that and think what if citizens weren't allowed to have a gun? America would've had 82 fewer mass shootings but you know fuck those people who died in those 82 mass shootings lets blame Video games

Classic fallacy, this just shows that I am talking to a person who lives in a disney world. How can you claim that those shooting wouldn't have happened if those people didn't get their weapons legally? Do you not realize that the majority of gun-related killings are done with illegal weapons? How did those shooting happen if they didn't get their weapons legally? Oh, let me explain to you; Because criminals do not care about the law, and anyone who has the intention to kill, will do it with whatever tool they have, and they will get the tool illegally if they can't get it legally.

Also, According to a survey by the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics that was made in 2004 (because apparently they don't do that anymore I wonder why) 48% of prisoners who were inside the prison for gun-related crimes obtained the gun legally while 40% obtained it legally (12% were determined as unknown) but sure let say 52% illegally 48% legally does that sound reasonable? do you think that it's reasonable that almost half the people in prison in 2004 were inside because of gun-related crimes obtained the gun legally?

What up with you and Dimit continuously using out-dated sources? Using statistics from 2004, really? Let me show you the updated ones. First of all your statement is wrong that the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics don't publish any new surveys because I found a survey from 2016 which was posted in 2019 on their official website. Here it is: https://www.ojp.gov/library/abstracts/source-and-use-firearms-involved-crimes-survey-prison-inmates-2016

Among the estimated 287,400 prisoners who had possessed a firearm during their offenses, 56 percent had either stolen it (6 percent), found it at the scene of the crime (7 percent), or obtained it off the street or from the underground market (43 percent). Most of the remainder (25 percent) had obtained it from a family member or friend; 7 percent had purchased it under their own name from a licensed firearm dealer. About one in five prisoners who possessed a firearm during their offense obtained it with the intent of using it during the crime

So lets see;

From 56% of them:

- (6%) stole it (6%) = illegally obtained
- (7%) found it at the scene, means they also stole it = illegally obtained
- (43%) bought it on the street or from an underground market = illegally obtained

From most of the remainders:

25% got it from a friend or family member, so it's not under their name = illegally obtained
7% bought it under their name, from a licensed firearm dealer = legally obtained

This shows that only 7 out of 100 guns were legally obtained.

imagine if there were harder process to own a gun that needed certification or a job that required a gun I'd say at least 50% of those who obtained the gun legally wouldn't have committed crimes

Again this statement is a fallacy, which I already talked about it my first statement.

Okay okay let's forget all of that you say America is a safe place because citizens have easy access to guns
then explain this please https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/homicide-rates-from-firearms
This graph shows that America is the ONLY first world country with Homicide rates from firearms above 4 per 100k people the rest are poor third world countries but the sad part there are 3rd wold countries that have fewer Homicide rates from firearms than America JOKE

First of all, typical confirmation bias which just proves I am talking to a brick wall.



You keep cherry picking to try to fit your narrative, to try to confirm your biased view. Firstly by using a cherry-picked statistics that only relies on the gun-related homicides. Obviously the gun related homicides will be higher if there are more guns in the country, even a toddler can figure that out. The thing I am talking about, is that having more guns does not mean a less safe environment, rather a more safe one, because you are on an equal pedestal with the criminal. Rather than fighting with your fists or knife against someone who has a gun, you can fight with a gun too, and have a better chance at survival which even a toddler can understand.

I even proved the thing about homicide rates, when I showed that the Czech Republic, has relaxed gun laws, yet it has way lower homicide rates compared to many other high-income 1st world countries who actually do not allow weapons to be owned by citizens. So your argument was already debunked long ago.

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #23 on: 15 02, 2021, 01:33:23 pm »

I even proved the thing about homicide rates, when I showed that the Czech Republic, has relaxed gun laws, yet it has way lower homicide rates compared to many other high-income 1st world countries who actually do not allow weapons to be owned by citizens. So your argument was already debunked long ago.
How many times will you keep repeating that same, senseless czech republic argument, there is not even anything special/different about that country that would support your point





27 posts on this topic already and there is still not any number that supports your argument and instead of giving us any proof on your argument, you spend 90% of the space here telling us that all of our data are biased and taken out of context


This shows that only 7 out of 100 guns were legally obtained.
? and how does that matter ?
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Offline domi

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #24 on: 15 02, 2021, 01:58:53 pm »
Dimit, it would be interesting if you showed a graph involving Latin America where gun ownership is strictly controlled.. We would see very interesting homicide rates.

In Latin America, criminals easily get guns (because they do illegal things, duh), but civilians have a tougher time obtaining firearm to defend themselves. Along with govt corruption, it's one of the reasons why criminals basically rule these nations.
« Last Edit: 15 02, 2021, 02:00:29 pm by domi »
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Offline OhhKarim

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #25 on: 15 02, 2021, 09:46:40 pm »
How many times will you keep repeating that same, senseless czech republic argument, there is not even anything special/different about that country that would support your point

27 posts on this topic already and there is still not any number that supports your argument and instead of giving us any proof on your argument, you spend 90% of the space here telling us that all of our data are biased and taken out of context

Again Dimit using "firearm deaths" per 100k people rather than homicide rates perk 100k people. Czech Republic & Cyprus, both having very relaxed weapon laws, are from the lowest homicide rates in Europe regardless of the fact that a lot of other European countries do not allow weapons to citizens.





? and how does that matter ?

It shows that people will get guns regardless if its legal or not, criminals don't care about the law, if they have the intention to kill, they will get the weapons via any means, even it's illegal. And the graph above proves that even if guns are illegal to citizens, the homicide rates can still be high as criminals will use any tools to kill, whether that would be a knife, a crowbar, etc. Without giving guns to the good guys (law abiding citizens), those citizens will not stand a chance against someone with a gun.

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #26 on: 15 02, 2021, 09:54:34 pm »
Even if you are a law abiding citizen and when you first bought the gun your only intention was to use it for self defense it's gonna raise your motivation to use that gun even in stupid fights because it's just available next to you and anger might get the best of you. If you are afraid of people robbing your house, make a decent security system and pay for insurance and let the robber take whatever he wants and if you live in a decent country you will get back every cent you lost. And even if guns were to be allowed, there should be requirements like a background check before you purchase and a necessary training period to teach you how to properly use a gun so you don't shoot yourself while trying to kick the robber out of your house. Even then, bringing such dangerous tools into your life is a huge risk if you aren't responsible enough.
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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #27 on: 16 02, 2021, 09:55:10 am »
Dimit, it would be interesting if you showed a graph involving Latin America where gun ownership is strictly controlled.. We would see very interesting homicide rates.

In Latin America, criminals easily get guns (because they do illegal things, duh), but civilians have a tougher time obtaining firearm to defend themselves. Along with govt corruption, it's one of the reasons why criminals basically rule these nations.
Then fix these countries as a whole
As shown in all graphs above, arming up the citizens wont make these any countries safer and the starving people in the favelas will continue to shoot people up no matter if a few wealthy people have a pistol under their bed or not, it wont help you when you have a gun pointed at your head, and also (obviously) none of the poverty issues in brazil get solved with more civilian guns




Again Dimit using "firearm deaths" per 100k people rather than homicide rates perk 100k people. Czech Republic & Cyprus, both having very relaxed weapon laws, are from the lowest homicide rates in Europe regardless of the fact that a lot of other European countries do not allow weapons to citizens.
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I have already debunked that argument 2 times now and you still keep repeating the same thing by talking about "homicide rates" instead of firearm deaths and you also keep bringing up switzerland and czech republic which both have very low gun ownership rates.

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And for your information, the (slightly increased) numbers in switzerland are based on the fact that switzerland is a highly militarized country where trained soldiers can take take their weapons home as private weapon after ending their military service which is signficicant in a country where almost everyone joins the military, and the country also has a traditional gun culture where a large part of the population is doing some kind of shooting sport in organized associations called "Schützenvereine" and they strongly regulated and professional. Besides that, you cant just randomly get a license and buy a gun in switzerland, and you also can not randomly walk around with it. No idea why you are trying to compare this to an underdeveloped country (USA) where everyone can buy guns at walmart  :fp:


Quote
It shows that people will get guns regardless if its legal or not, criminals don't care about the law, if they have the intention to kill, they will get the weapons via any means, even it's illegal. And the graph above proves that even if guns are illegal to citizens, the homicide rates can still be high as criminals will use any tools to kill, whether that would be a knife, a crowbar, etc. Without giving guns to the good guys (law abiding citizens), those citizens will not stand a chance against someone with a gun.
And that doesnt happen in countries where weapons are not available to everyone and everywhere, again another argument thats instantly getting debunked

No offence but idk why you want to keep carrying on a debate by force when you simply cant win it because there are no arguments in your favour
« Last Edit: 16 02, 2021, 09:57:02 am by Dimit »
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Offline OhhKarim

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #28 on: 16 02, 2021, 04:56:48 pm »
I have already debunked that argument 2 times now and you still keep repeating the same thing by talking about "homicide rates" instead of firearm deaths

Explain why? Because obviously it proves that even when weapons are harder to get access to, the amount of people dying by criminals doesn't necessarily increase. Which is being proven when many other European countries have a higher homicide rate than Czech Republic, and Cyprus, regardless of their relaxed weapon laws. So you didn't debunk anything, I debunked your argument a long time ago about the gun-related graphs, but you are keen on continuously posting the same stuff, while blaming others of doing so.

and you also keep bringing up switzerland and czech republic which both have very low gun ownership rates.

And this is simply just incorrect information. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Denmark 9.9
Homicide rate (2017): 1.20

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017):  Germany 19.6   
Homicide rate (2017): 1.00

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Spain 7.5
Homicide rate (2017): 0.70

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Cyprus   34.0
Homicide rate (2017): 0.60

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Czech Republic 12.5   
Homicide rate (2017): 0.60

I can post many more countries, but they're already visible in the link posted above. I took a few examples to prove it already, Denmark and Spain have less weapons per 100 people, yet higher homicide rates, Denmark even has double the homicide rates of both the Czech Republic and Cyprus. In fact, many countries that do not allow weapons to citizens, have higher homicide rates. This is evidence as to why your gun-related homicide graphs are useless, it's about the total homicide deaths that matter. Which even though these countries have more relaxed gun laws, and more guns per 100 citizens, there is less homicides in the country. So yet again I've debunked your claims.



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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #29 on: 16 02, 2021, 05:33:47 pm »
(don't use all homicide rates unless you don't know that there are other ways to commit homicide)
He wont understand the difference no matter how many times we point it out here
By the way it doesnt even rly matter if he uses the normal homicide rates or the homicide rates by gun violence because the normal homicide rate in the US is still many times higher than in developed european countries and 2/3rd of of the deaths in the US are caused by gun violence as shown in my last post




And this is simply just incorrect information. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Denmark 9.9
Homicide rate (2017): 1.20

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017):  Germany 19.6   
Homicide rate (2017): 1.00

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Spain 7.5
Homicide rate (2017): 0.70

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Cyprus   34.0
Homicide rate (2017): 0.60

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Czech Republic 12.5   
Homicide rate (2017): 0.60

I can post many more countries, but they're already visible in the link posted above. I took a few examples to prove it already, Denmark and Spain have less weapons per 100 people, yet higher homicide rates, Denmark even has double the homicide rates of both the Czech Republic and Cyprus. In fact, many countries that do not allow weapons to citizens, have higher homicide rates. This is evidence as to why your gun-related homicide graphs are useless, it's about the total homicide deaths that matter. Which even though these countries have more relaxed gun laws, and more guns per 100 citizens, there is less homicides in the country. So yet again I've debunked your claims.
All of these ownership numbers are low, and so are the homicide rates, so that litereally speaks against your argument and only proves once more that low firearm ownership rates result in low homicide rates

Btw cyprus number of firearms per 100 persons is slightly higher, just like switzerland, due to hunters and army veterans being allowed to keep their weapons at home, again something that has nothing to do with giving large numbers of random people guns for self-protection


By the way, germany had a school shooting in 2009 where 15 people were killed because someone took the gun of his father (licensed and trained gun owner), another great example of how private gun ownership doesnt work
« Last Edit: 16 02, 2021, 05:40:39 pm by Dimit »
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