Author Topic: Is College is a key factor to your success?  (Read 1755 times)

Offline domi

  • New Community Member
  • *
  • Posts: 199
  • Chilling somewhere in Europe
  • Registered: 21/01/2012
    YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Is College is a key factor to your success?
« Reply #30 on: 11 06, 2021, 04:07:48 pm »
I don't see how the West-European education system is a failure. It's affordable and accessible to anyone who wants to study. And are those US colleges really that prestigious? Or is it just because they're so expensive, inaccessible to half of the population and have a bunch of adverts due to all those movies?



Technological innovation is not centered in Western Europe. It's centered in the US. So the Western European colleges are pretty bad for encouraging innovation. In that sense they're a failure. 

Considering many subsidized colleges have strict admission requirements, it's really debatable how "accessible"  European colleges are to students with financial problems,.  As an example, let's say a student couldn't perform well during high school because of family problems. Will he be able to meet the strict admission criteria despite his lack of knowledge? Or does he need to invest in private tutoring now, which costs significant money? This problem is exacerbated if the student has learning difficulties (dyslexia, ADHD,etc) or the student lives in a small town and needs to relocate.

Even from an academic point of view, European colleges have higher dropout rates than American ones.  In that sense they're also a failure.




Quote

Cherry picking the luckiest people in the world and using it as an example? If you have 100 people who start a random business with a high school degree the same way the founders of those companies did, and on the other hand, you have 100 people who all went into universities and studied something from the STEM sector (Science, technology, engineering, and mathematics) I guarantee you, you are way more likely to be financially successful in life with those STEM degrees.

Here's some data, specifically US data since you brought up US companies as example.

Are we changing the subject now to "who's more likely to be successful in life?" We can talk about that too, but I was saying that the US environment is better than Europe at stimulating innovation. Lower taxes encourage  savings and this can then be used to start businesses.  Anyway, I elaborated on my points in my reply to Ptole.


Peace

Offline OhhKarim

  • Senior Community Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2370
  • Players of the Gold
  • Registered: 16/05/2015
    YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
  • Group: Team eXodus #1
  • Ingame: OhhKarim
  • Squad: NoAP4U
Re: Is College is a key factor to your success?
« Reply #31 on: 11 06, 2021, 08:11:30 pm »
Are we changing the subject now to "who's more likely to be successful in life?" We can talk about that too, but I was saying that the US environment is better than Europe at stimulating innovation.

Eh, the title literally talks about success? It says nothing about innovation, which is the irrelevant point that you are wobbling about.

Offline Liso

  • CIT News Manager
  • State Official
  • ****
  • Posts: 817
  • Registered: 29/11/2019
    Years
  • Group: SAPD
Re: Is College is a key factor to your success?
« Reply #32 on: 11 06, 2021, 08:52:22 pm »
Sort of, yes. College graduation certificate is a requirement in some high jobs eg; Doctor (If you have graduated from Medical Colleges). Can be used in some others societies too. In short, you can find a job easier than without having a graduation certificate. So it can be a sort of key.

But you can also build your success without that graduation of course you should be aware of what you're actually doing and what's the goal that you're aiming for because not everyone could make a successful life unless it's planed and have studied every move before you begin.
x

Online Dimit

  • USNS Leader
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1391
  • USHITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
  • Registered: 09/10/2012
    YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
  • Group: U.S.Navy SEALs
  • Ingame: ADM-Dimit#USNS
Re: Is College is a key factor to your success?
« Reply #33 on: 11 06, 2021, 11:34:33 pm »
The US actually has the most prestigious universities in the world. Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Colombia are all located in the US.
What does "prestige" have to do with quality?
University rankings are totally random, different in every ranking and affected even by idiotic factors like how many times its being cited or how rich a university is, which is obvious when a university is like a business where students have to pay thousands of dollars each semester to pay for education. More advanced countries like for example germany provide university education for free with tax payer money and are forced by law to guarantee the highest level of quality in each university equally, allowing everyone to get a top education as a basic right, no matter how wealthy their parents are.

And idk who told you that the "top" universities are in the US, while in reality the rankings show universities from different countries like the UK, Switzerland, Germany, Singapore, China, Japan and so on.
https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2022


Only a small number of countries provide workable college systems  (e.g. Western Europe), but that's only because  their citizens are taxed to death compared to the US. How many 21st century innovations come from Western Europe?  So much for their educational success. Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Apple are all American companies, and some of their founders  only have a high school degree.
Good job you just successfully debunked your own argument


Yet Western Europe and their colleges can't compare to American innovation. This means their system is a failure.
The fact that you are not familiar with western european innovation and technology or that you believe that the level of business founding in a country is related to university education only indicates that the education system has failed on you
There's no god, no saviour, no paradise and no life beyond. Our existence is limited. Nothing will save us from death.  Use your time on earth wisely.
Be kind to others, share your wealth - donate to the poor, protect the environment, use your opportunity every day to make earth a better place.
Currently 795 million humans have insufficent access to food.
You can start helping today


Offline domi

  • New Community Member
  • *
  • Posts: 199
  • Chilling somewhere in Europe
  • Registered: 21/01/2012
    YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Is College is a key factor to your success?
« Reply #34 on: 12 06, 2021, 01:21:23 pm »
The fact that you are not familiar with western european innovation and technology or that you believe that the level of business founding in a country is related to university education only indicates that the education system has failed on you

Did your Western European college system teach you to resort to ad hominem attacks or did you pick it up somewhere else? Let’s focus on the arguments.

Here’s how a reputable think tank supports my position in their detailed study:

Quote
Europe a century ago was a global powerhouse of innovation, but it has started to lose its edge: today, despite some notable exceptions, many innovative companies are found elsewhere. Europe is falling behind in growing sectors as well as in areas of innovation such as genomics, quantum computing, and artificial intelligence, where it is being outpaced by the United States and China.

https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/innovation-and-growth/reviving-innovation-in-europe

A century ago? Right. Before excessive taxation and regulation became the rule of the land.

More advanced countries like for example germany provide university education for free with tax payer money and are forced by law to guarantee the highest level of quality in each university equally, allowing everyone to get a top education as a basic right, no matter how wealthy their parents are.

It’s not free. Germans are taxed to death and they have significantly lower per capita income than Yankees as a result of greater government meddling. You’re misrepresenting the facts when you say that “everyone can get a top education as a basic right in Germany”. That’s simply incorrect. Vulnerable individuals and families will still have problems, so the main rationale for tax-funded colleges falls apart. To quote myself:

Quote
Considering many subsidized colleges have strict admission requirements, it's really debatable how "accessible"  European colleges are to students with financial problems,.  As an example, let's say a student couldn't perform well during high school because of family problems. Will he be able to meet the strict admission criteria despite his lack of knowledge? Or does he need to invest in private tutoring now, which costs significant money? This problem is exacerbated if the student has learning difficulties (dyslexia, ADHD,etc) or the student lives in a small town and needs to relocate.

Students with family problems will still have issues in your system, and considering the divorce rates and many other human factors, such students represent a huge chunk of the population. Further, relocating from a small town to a  college city can cost significant amount of money regardless of the cost of college tuition.

This is why many Swedes almost have the same student debt burden as Americans! The greater government meddling in Sweden, which makes “free college” possible, also raises the cost of living, and now Swedish students have to take out loans to pay for rent and other expenditures in Stockholm while studying there.

The high college dropout rates demonstrate that it’s all a huge financial risk for many students. Even in more enlightened countries like Germany, students with learning difficulties do not have equal access to support systems. The quality of such support systems varies geographically within each country (yes, even in Germany) and it’ll always depend on luck, so  the vulnerable student cannot control if the college campus of her choosing has a good support system for her needs.

Let us not even talk about developing countries, which is where around 80% of human population resides. Colleges are simply not worth it for so many people.

Good job you just successfully debunked your own argument

Not at all. Western Europeans are taxed to death, so they eventually pay more than Americans in total lifetime costs for college education. Still, more Americans graduate from college, which is another failure of the European system

People who never want to go to college also have to contribute with tax money. Why should a tradesman who taught himself the craft contribute toward others peoples' college education? Why should a single parent on limited income be taxed more so that wealthier households can obtain a more affordable college tuition?

Eh, the title literally talks about success? It says nothing about innovation, which is the irrelevant point that you are wobbling about.

Innovation is very relevant when we are evaluating the success of any college system, and because you’re praising a specific college system, I decided to demonstrate its flaws.

Your statistics were obviously made by unscrupulous academics who try to promote college. They do it for obvious reasons… mainly so they can keep their handsome college salaries financed by students and their parents, either directly or through taxation. The only thing that matters for these academics is money. Keep the money rolling in, even if some young man ruins his financial life trying to graduate from college. Keep the money rolling in, even if many young women end up as sex workers in the name of college.

Ever heard of Onlyfans and SeekingArrangement? These sites are mostly populated by young women trying to graduate from college in a desperate attempt to do what society and college professors tells them to do. And many college professors with handsome salaries LOVE these websites!

As for your stats, it’s a flawed comparison.

It compares people who start  businesses, either successfully or unsuccessfully, with people who successfully finish college.  The comparison clouds the fact that many students drop out of college, so they fail at college as much as some people fail at business.  For the sake of fairness,we should compare people who successfully launch businesses to those who successfully finish college

Further, graduating from college requires 16 years of dedicated study for most people. Many students fail at college before they even qualify to go to college. For example, we can say that many people go to high school so they can attend college a few years down the road. For various reasons, some of them end up as high school dropouts. No big deal.

But are they also included in the study? No. The authors deceptively only count  “people who graduate college”, and then the unscrupulous comparison is made to folks who start businesses. Instead, we should be taking into consideration everyone  who starts their journey toward college, just like they count everyone who starts a business, and only then we should compare the two groups.

For 16 years of dedicated study, it’s all bullshit. Give me someone who’s been actively trying for 8 years to make a successful business, which is half the time required for graduating from college, and he’s probably better off because of all the marketable skills he has obtained on the journey.

Your study also includes side businesses that serve a limited purpose in time. The study also doesn’t cite the fact that 50% of people who start business are satisfied with the results, even after they close the business. It doesn’t mention the fact because the authors of the study are deceptive and have ulterior motives to promote their own interests.

Keep in mind that I think some people should still go to college.  If someone was an excellent student in high school, if someone has a penchant for academic subjects and can afford the costs, she should undoubtedly go to college. But don't shove it down everyone's throats and ruin lives in the process. I understand that academics have to save their employment and handsome salaries, but let's not do it at the expense of vulnerable individuals and their families.

« Last Edit: 12 06, 2021, 01:41:55 pm by domi »
Peace

Online Dimit

  • USNS Leader
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1391
  • USHITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
  • Registered: 09/10/2012
    YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
  • Group: U.S.Navy SEALs
  • Ingame: ADM-Dimit#USNS
Re: Is College is a key factor to your success?
« Reply #35 on: 14 06, 2021, 05:34:52 am »
It’s not free. Germans are taxed to death and they have significantly lower per capita income than Yankees as a result of greater government meddling.
Something is FREE because you dont have to pay when you want to get higher education.
Ofcourse the only nonsense argument you manage to bring up against this is that "its not free because someone has to pay for it", yes, that wasnt the meaning of being "free". The wealthy pay for the access to education, welcome to a working society, they also pay for health insurance and social security.
"per capita income" I wont even comment on that since this value is flawed and not representative for this subject, and when 40million people in your country receive food-stamps, you will probably agree with that


You’re misrepresenting the facts when you say that “everyone can get a top education as a basic right in Germany”. That’s simply incorrect. Vulnerable individuals and families will still have problems, so the main rationale for tax-funded colleges falls apart. To quote myself:
Students with family problems will still have issues in your system, and considering the divorce rates and many other human factors, such students represent a huge chunk of the population. Further, relocating from a small town to a  college city can cost significant amount of money regardless of the cost of college tuition.

This is why many Swedes almost have the same student debt burden as Americans! The greater government meddling in Sweden, which makes “free college” possible, also raises the cost of living, and now Swedish students have to take out loans to pay for rent and other expenditures in Stockholm while studying there.

The high college dropout rates demonstrate that it’s all a huge financial risk for many students. Even in more enlightened countries like Germany, students with learning difficulties do not have equal access to support systems. The quality of such support systems varies geographically within each country (yes, even in Germany) and it’ll always depend on luck, so  the vulnerable student cannot control if the college campus of her choosing has a good support system for her needs.
"vulnerabile individuals" get student loans by the government to study, currently thats up to 850€ per month, out of which you only have to pay back 50% or a total maximum of 10k over 20 years, no interest rate.
Besides that, you get other benefits like access to cheap student apartments, tax-free side jobs, low fees for things like health insurance etc.
There is no such thing as a financial risk or restriction.


Not at all. Western Europeans are taxed to death, so they eventually pay more than Americans in total lifetime costs for college education.
Made up claim

Still, more Americans graduate from college, which is another failure of the European system
Germany has a system called "Berufsausbildung", state-regulated and structured just like university education, in which you receive medium or high-level education for an advanced profession and receive non-academic diploma, which qualifies you for jobs ranging from similar or higher levels than a university and also leads to higher wages than academic degrees in some fields, especially in the technological sector. As a result of this, companies have a very high demand for these people and it is very common that aircraft mechanics at Lufthansa or mechatronics at BMW earn more than normal engineers and can step up to leading positions without academic degrees.


People who never want to go to college also have to contribute with tax money. Why should a tradesman who taught himself the craft contribute toward others peoples' college education? Why should a single parent on limited income be taxed more so that wealthier households can obtain a more affordable college tuition?
Not sure what this question has to do with the debate.
But im sure that all countries with tax-funded higher education are glad that their system doesnt work like urs does


Innovation is very relevant when we are evaluating the success of any college system, and because you’re praising a specific college system, I decided to demonstrate its flaws.
Not rly
Innovation is promoted when smart people dont have the ability to easily achieve a good degree for a well paying job and risk their savings and time with a start-up instead. Most of these things are just created by chance, more ppl trying stuff out = more positive results. Google, Microsoft, Facebook etc, all started by individuals in a garage or a dormroom by people who were just nerds and tried out things without knowing that it would be something big eventually. Even if these are often college students or dropouts, their college education is not relevant for these inventions at all. It is basically just a correlation of all of them being smart, not being poor and also being students and having time to do stuff while not wasting their energy at some full-time job, but all of their qualities came from before they attended college, so that means, if innovation can be influenced at all by education, then it already starts with school education.
The tendency to start a business in europe is very low because people have very easy access to well paid, secure academic jobs so that takes away any motivation risk lots of money and time on opening a business with a 10% survival rate.
« Last Edit: 14 06, 2021, 05:50:51 am by Dimit »
There's no god, no saviour, no paradise and no life beyond. Our existence is limited. Nothing will save us from death.  Use your time on earth wisely.
Be kind to others, share your wealth - donate to the poor, protect the environment, use your opportunity every day to make earth a better place.
Currently 795 million humans have insufficent access to food.
You can start helping today


Offline domi

  • New Community Member
  • *
  • Posts: 199
  • Chilling somewhere in Europe
  • Registered: 21/01/2012
    YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Is College is a key factor to your success?
« Reply #36 on: 14 06, 2021, 05:38:16 pm »
Neither of us is going to change his mind and  I’ve already addressed many of your points in my previous posts. No need to write a long post again. So let me try to find common ground.

Germany has a system called "Berufsausbildung", state-regulated and structured just like university education, in which you receive medium or high-level education for an advanced profession and receive non-academic diploma, which qualifies you for jobs ranging from similar or higher levels than a university and also leads to higher wages than academic degrees in some fields, especially in the technological sector. As a result of this, companies have a very high demand for these people and it is very common that aircraft mechanics at Lufthansa or mechatronics at BMW earn more than normal engineers and can step up to leading positions without academic degrees.


I actually support the main idea behind this system.

Vocational education, in its various forms, is key to reducing poverty and unemployment. If I’m not mistaken, the German government started promoting vocational education after the Hartz reforms, which took place during the 2000’s as a response to high unemployment rates. The unemployment figures in Germany were reaching 12% at the time, so something had to give.

There have been great results since then in terms of new job creation in Germany. Nonetheless, taxes and contributions had to be greatly reduced when employing some types of workers, so pro-market reforms were key.

Germany is still one of the few outliers that has a very good employment rate despite “generous” government. France, on the other hand, is not faring that well.

But the German model, with its many flaws which I’m not going to talk about now, cannot be emulated in other cultures.  Why? Simply put, 90%+ of countries don’t have the funds for such extravagant government spending as seen in Germany. And Germans are diligent people who pay their taxes on time. Compare that to the Southern European mentality. In Southern Europe, we see lots of tax evasion and incredibly corrupt politicians. The German model cannot work here.

So  the  model cannot be prescribed to more than 90% of the world, either due to lack of funds or incompatible cultures in other countries. That means whatever we say about it, either good or bad, is not really relevant for most people here.

« Last Edit: 14 06, 2021, 05:42:34 pm by domi »
Peace

Offline BlueOne

  • New Community Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • I've chosen a weird name, right ?
  • Registered: 18/06/2021
  • Ingame: BlueOne
Re: Is College is a key factor to your success?
« Reply #37 on: 19 06, 2021, 06:37:40 pm »
Nah, I don't think that colleges are a "key factor". In Egypt, some students are extremely intelligent, but they couldn't enter the college due to many problems (Including weird exams in high schools) but these students learn languages and many other things... They might be incredible, but right now everyone cares about your cares about your certificate... so what I believe is "Colleges are an essential to find work" but not "A key factor to my success"
                                                                                                       BlueOne

Offline Lxuraz

  • ***
  • Posts: 245
  • Manhood isn't about your favourite color - Lxuraz
  • Registered: 18/11/2014
    YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Is College is a key factor to your success?
« Reply #38 on: 19 06, 2021, 06:53:38 pm »
Of course it is, But not the main reason, If you ever succeed in life, You're the reason behind the success, Not the college that you went to, Because you want to know who a successful person is, He is someone who set plans years before he achieves them, No matter what his goal is, He knows he gonna achieve it, Even though, At some point he overthinks either he gonna achieve it or not, But deep down he knows if he either gonna achieve it or not by the hard work he puts daily, So for me, College is just a place where teaches you stuffs you basically don't learn unless you get to college, Calling college a main factor to your success is a huge crime, For me college is plan B, As they say, There is people who succeed in school, And there's people who succeed in life.
Ex.Regluar Community Member - Ex.Tutorial & Guides board moderator


Online Dimit

  • USNS Leader
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1391
  • USHITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
  • Registered: 09/10/2012
    YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
  • Group: U.S.Navy SEALs
  • Ingame: ADM-Dimit#USNS
Re: Is College is a key factor to your success?
« Reply #39 on: 20 06, 2021, 01:49:33 pm »
Neither of us is going to change his mind and  I’ve already addressed many of your points in my previous posts. No need to write a long post again. So let me try to find common ground.


I actually support the main idea behind this system.

Vocational education, in its various forms, is key to reducing poverty and unemployment. If I’m not mistaken, the German government started promoting vocational education after the Hartz reforms, which took place during the 2000’s as a response to high unemployment rates. The unemployment figures in Germany were reaching 12% at the time, so something had to give.

There have been great results since then in terms of new job creation in Germany. Nonetheless, taxes and contributions had to be greatly reduced when employing some types of workers, so pro-market reforms were key.

Germany is still one of the few outliers that has a very good employment rate despite “generous” government. France, on the other hand, is not faring that well.

But the German model, with its many flaws which I’m not going to talk about now, cannot be emulated in other cultures.  Why? Simply put, 90%+ of countries don’t have the funds for such extravagant government spending as seen in Germany. And Germans are diligent people who pay their taxes on time. Compare that to the Southern European mentality. In Southern Europe, we see lots of tax evasion and incredibly corrupt politicians. The German model cannot work here.

So  the  model cannot be prescribed to more than 90% of the world, either due to lack of funds or incompatible cultures in other countries. That means whatever we say about it, either good or bad, is not really relevant for most people here.
I doubt it actually, imo the more easy it becomes for people to take a normal, well paid job, the lower the amount of people who are taking the rist to spend their existance on innovation and entrepeneurship (except for actual scientists and existing, competing companies etc)
One day something like an unconditional basic income would maybe change this situation

Just look at the history of the KFC founder for example:  

Why would someone go through this if he could sit in an office with a 6 figure wage

The only reason why technological innovation has been booming so much in the western world over the past century is WW1, WW2 and the cold war and the technologies that emerged for it or continued to emerge from it, especially rocket science and aviation
« Last Edit: 20 06, 2021, 01:52:56 pm by Dimit »
There's no god, no saviour, no paradise and no life beyond. Our existence is limited. Nothing will save us from death.  Use your time on earth wisely.
Be kind to others, share your wealth - donate to the poor, protect the environment, use your opportunity every day to make earth a better place.
Currently 795 million humans have insufficent access to food.
You can start helping today


Offline domi

  • New Community Member
  • *
  • Posts: 199
  • Chilling somewhere in Europe
  • Registered: 21/01/2012
    YearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYearsYears
Re: Is College is a key factor to your success?
« Reply #40 on: 22 06, 2021, 09:50:03 am »
Here’s something to keep in mind. Your advice is not adequate for many people visiting this site. Our friends from Turkey and Tunisia, for example, have only  50% high-school graduation rates. Do you think they are gonna go to college? Absolutely not.

They didn’t try the college route because their countries don’t have good job opportunities for college graduates. No one’s gonna move from their small town, waste a family fortune on rent and increased expenditures, just so they can go to college to get a shitty salary in return, which is not guaranteed as unemployment rates are high. This a reality in many developing countries.

My advice is much better for them. Learn a trade like plumbing,  try to turn your skills into a business with low start-up costs, or get into IT if you can for online opportunities. None of these things require college degrees, yet people can change their financial lives for the better.

There are lots of secure jobs that require skills without the necessity of academic degrees. Carpentry, for example, has been around since prehistoric times, and I’ve never heard of an unemployed carpenter and they’re paid very well.


Quote
6 figure wage

Let’s go back to the real world. For most people visiting this site, it’s more like a four-figure wage for college graduates, if they’re lucky to get employed.

Even in Germany, only a small number of people earns a six-figure salary. And they definitely don’t do it “straight outta college” because college usually doesn’t teach job skills… it teaches general knowledge and theory. College graduates  almost always need extensive on-the-job training.

You’re underestimating the importance of  innovation. Without innovation, products would  cost a whole lot more, as production efficiency wouldn’t have been improving during all these years.  Without innovation, everyone would be poorer, both the garbage man and the academic man. The private sector is leading innovation, otherwise we would also be using Soviet technology from the Cold War-era in our day-to-day lives, which never happened.

Thanks to innovation and the tech boom, lots of IT jobs are available in my country, and they pay very well for local standards, allowing poorer people to change their lives.

EDIT: Fixed broken link
« Last Edit: 22 06, 2021, 01:31:39 pm by domi »
Peace