Author Topic: Abortion and your opinion about it  (Read 5560 times)

Offline BlackBear

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Re: Abortion and your opinion about it
« Reply #15 on: 07 10, 2020, 01:22:15 am »
Hello again, I really understand the idea of the absolute freedom but when you use your freedom to get in others' freedom, the justice will pop up, this justice can't happen with no other power so here it comes the use of the crowd and how they think and justify for this case but before I dig in I have to say that this justice mustn't be done, it's all up to who's involved in this case.

so, we have the mother who has just removed the freedom of this child, the freedom to live and yes it's murder, I can't name it with any other names because this is how do we know the murder. so, here it comes the absolute justice which will be decided with this foreigner power and this power is all of us, how can we see this case? is it really how can we see it, removing the absolute freedom from a human? if so then what's the punishment? if not then how could we get that baby back to their freedom? we can't? then the justice must be done.

anyway, as I said above this justice mustn't be done, I mean it's up to the baby and that mother, how's that? it's basically by ignoring it, forgetting it in other meanings and that's because no one is calling for it but wait, this foreign power is calling for it so should we apply it or not?

it's a mess I know, that is what's happening when you give a huge number of people the right to give their opinions and then the mess comes because there's no power to apply all of these opinions, neither to control nor understand it. and maybe this unknown and new power could be the god.
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also, don't say that this mother is the owner of this baby, that's nonsense because if we took your idea in real, this will mean all of us is a possession of our parents and these parents is a possession of their parents so yes it's an endless cycle. also, I mentioned parents above their because the father of this baby is involved of this baby's life means the mother still doesn't have the absolute ability to take their life as it's mutual possession.
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Offline Arran

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Re: Abortion and your opinion about it
« Reply #16 on: 07 10, 2020, 10:11:02 am »
Women have the power over their own body. They can do what they want with their body and their life. And that includes terminating a pregnancy.

I don't know how you can call it their life as if a baby doesn't have a life of it's own, but anyway, even though I believe certain abortions are immoral I believe that it would be more immoral to use violence and coercion (how man made laws are enforced) against someone who has had or is trying to have an abortion, so you're right about that.

My point is that by it being immoral it may result in karmic repercussions which whether or not that is real is a whole debate on it's own but the best evidence for karma is the amount of people who intuitively believe in it. The problem with karma is that it can take things so long to come back round a lot of it will happen in different life times, well and especially with the abortions because the karmic repercussion of aborting a baby may be to get incarnated into a baby that is going to get aborted / naturally die in the womb.
« Last Edit: 07 10, 2020, 10:14:00 am by Arran »
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Offline OhhKarim

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Re: Abortion and your opinion about it
« Reply #17 on: 07 10, 2020, 01:50:35 pm »
Women have the power over their own body.

Keywords: their own body

The fetus is a different body, you have no right over it

Offline Arran

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Re: Abortion and your opinion about it
« Reply #18 on: 07 10, 2020, 10:49:35 pm »
Keywords: their own body

The fetus is a different body, you have no right over it

The problem is that we can't agree at what point does the baby actually go from just a blob of cells to have it's own body, is it when the egg is fertilized, is it when it resembles anything like a baby, is it when the heart first starts beating, is it when it has a chance to survive outside the womb?

Some people think it's as soon as an egg is fertilised but logically that is ridiculous because at that point it's so small you wouldn't even be able to see it and these are the same people that think animals can just be slaughtered for food. In fact OhhKarim, you're a defender of killing animals, so why is it immoral to kill an early stage unborn human but not immoral to kill another sentient being of a different species that is born?
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Offline remaked

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Re: Abortion and your opinion about it
« Reply #19 on: 07 10, 2020, 11:47:30 pm »
In fact OhhKarim, you're a defender of killing animals, so why is it immoral to kill an early stage unborn human but not immoral to kill another sentient being of a different species that is born?
I asked myself the same thing, it's probably either because abortion doesn't benefit him in a direct way like killing animals(food is the benefit in this case), or because of a religious point of view.
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Offline OhhKarim

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Re: Abortion and your opinion about it
« Reply #20 on: 08 10, 2020, 12:12:44 am »
The problem is that we can't agree at what point does the baby actually go from just a blob of cells to have it's own body, is it when the egg is fertilized, is it when it resembles anything like a baby, is it when the heart first starts beating, is it when it has a chance to survive outside the womb? Some people think it's as soon as an egg is fertilised but logically that is ridiculous because at that point it's so small you wouldn't even be able to see it

It's not about how small or big, if you say "well it's so miniscule" then that means "the smaller the less worse it is"? So then why would most people find it worse to kill a child than to kill an adult, even though they are smaller? So that logic is already out the window. Now back to your question about the fertilization, once fertilization has happened, a new human being has been created, this is supported by science; https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2. So I don't support the killing of it, at any stage or trimester.

and these are the same people that think animals can just be slaughtered for food. In fact OhhKarim, you're a defender of killing animals, so why is it immoral to kill an early stage unborn human but not immoral to kill another sentient being of a different species that is born?

Because in my religion it's said that those specific animals (such as chickens, cows, sheep, etc) are created for human consumption. We even have a feast/holdiday called eid al adha related to sacrificing animals (usually sheep or goats, but I also see people choosing to sacrifice cows) so I would be surprised how any Muslim would ever suggest veganism, and as a reminder, there's 1.8 billion Muslims around the world. I do not believe animals are equals to human beings, in my religion it's clearly stated that humans have been created superior to animals, and it's obvious even without being religious.



Now I understand that this standpoint will obviously not be supported by atheists, neither by you (as you don't share the same religion) so that's why I try to keep my arguments secular. I still believe that from a secular standpoint it is still normal to kill animals for food consumption with my arguments already being presented, such as;

- Humans have always been eating animals since the discovery of fire
- Atheists claim humans are animals, well animals eat animals so humans shouldn't be excluded from that logic
- You joke about that I talk a lot about the vitamin B12 but it's just true that vegans usually have to take vitamin B12 supplements, so that assures me humans should not be vegan in my opinion.

At the end of the day, I do understand vegans to some degree. You don't want death to those creatures, I understand this point. I am not a serial killer, I don't kill/support killing for "joy" or "thrill" like those serial killers do. I strictly support killing of animals for food consumption, without cruelty or "trolling". We just disagree on the point of the food consumption which we'll never change each other's minds about.

I asked myself the same thing, it's probably either because abortion doesn't benefit him in a direct way like killing animals(food is the benefit in this case), or because of a religious point of view.

I would never support a religion that supports the murder of innocent human beings in the womb, however my religion doesn't support it.

وَلاَ تَقْتُلُواْ أَوْلادَكُمْ خَشْيَةَ إِمْلاقٍ نَّحْنُ نَرْزُقُهُمْ وَإِيَّاكُم إنَّ قَتْلَهُمْ كَانَ خِطْءاً كَبِيراً

31. Do not kill your children for fear of poverty; it is We Who provide for them as well as for you. Killing them is surely a grave sin.14

14. It is clear that Islam forbids the killing of children, whether after their birth or before it (abortion), for economic or other reasons. Birth control today is encouraged apparently for economic reasons, especially in poorer countries, but, in truth, this is done to prevent an increase in population in those countries. The growth of population can never be an obstacle to economic development, nor does it cause poverty. On the contrary, population means a work force for a nation. Many of the rich countries of the world, such as Germany, England, France, Holland, Belgium, Italy, Japan, have a high density of population. What people should do, as al-Mawdūdī says (5: 39, note 31), is not to waste their energy on the destructive task of reducing the number of mouths that have to be fed; instead, they should devote their energy to constructive tasks which will lead to an increase in the production of wealth.
« Last Edit: 08 10, 2020, 12:16:49 am by OhhKarim »

Offline Arran

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Re: Abortion and your opinion about it
« Reply #21 on: 08 10, 2020, 11:15:45 am »
I do not believe animals are equals to human beings, in my religion it's clearly stated that humans have been created superior to animals, and it's obvious even without being religious.

And I guess the men believe they've been created superior to women, since women are treated like second class citizens in Muslim countries, correct?

Saudi Arabia being the perfect example

"The Saudi state essentially treats women as permanent legal minors."

"Women cannot apply for a passport or travel outside the country without their male guardian’s approval"

"Imprisoned women whose families refuse to release them are forced to remain in prison or in shelters until they reconcile with their families or obtain a new guardian, occasionally only after arranged marriages. "

"On May 15, just weeks before the Saudi authorities lifted the ban on women driving on June 24, authorities began arrests of prominent women’s rights activists and accused several of them of grave crimes like treason that appear to be directly related to their activism.

By November, at least 10 women remain detained without charge, though some anticipated charges could carry prison terms of up to 20 years."

Women in Saudi Arabia have only just recently been allowed to drive. Clearly this country is extremely dominated by their religious beliefs to the point where they have turned half their population into actual slaves. This shit would never happen in a non religious country.
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Offline BlackBear

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Re: Abortion and your opinion about it
« Reply #22 on: 08 10, 2020, 12:38:52 pm »
Women in Saudi Arabia have only just recently been allowed to drive. Clearly this country is extremely dominated by their religious beliefs to the point where they have turned half their population into actual slaves. This shit would never happen in a non religious country.
wait, do you think all the Muslims love how Saudi Arabia treat their citizens? pfft, don't make me laugh please. have you ever agree with your own government? don't lie, please. I just want to say that these things don't happen in Saudi Arabia only, we got a lot here in Egypt and if you don't know, there are some protests here in Egypt. but we still can't compare Egypt with Saudi Arabia, as Saudi Arabia is using the Islam to make rules but that's different in Egypt. anyway, applying such a religion like Islam in a country is extremely hard, do you know why? because perfection can't be applied.

the religion which says you're free to pick up any religion(1, 2) is insane, the restrictions you can see in Saudi Arabia isn't from the Islam. Islam apply the absolute freedom, unless you try to remove others' freedom.
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Offline OhhKarim

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Re: Abortion and your opinion about it
« Reply #23 on: 08 10, 2020, 06:45:36 pm »
And I guess the men believe they've been created superior to women, since women are treated like second class citizens in Muslim countries, correct?

https://quran.com/4/34?translations=22,18,19,101,21,84,95,20,17

I do believe men are created superior but that does not mean women deserve less respect, I would never let my father or anyone else treat my mother with disrespect and I wouldn't treat my wife or mother with disrespect. It's no mystery that men are just stronger than women which is supported by science hence why men have been chosen by God to be the servers and protectors of the family [wife and children], why would we serve and protect someone we do not respect? It's actually an honor to serve and protect. As well as, no-one is allowed to boast about whether men or women are more superior and God has said men and women have equal chances of entering Paradise so it doesn't matter anyways.

More questions can be found here; https://abuaminaelias.com/are-men-better-than-women-in-islam/
And it's best to ask a sheikh/imaam/scholar for religious questions rather than a normal citizen who might not have the best religious understanding.



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Saudi Arabia being the perfect example

"The Saudi state essentially treats women as permanent legal minors."

"Women cannot apply for a passport or travel outside the country without their male guardian’s approval"

"Imprisoned women whose families refuse to release them are forced to remain in prison or in shelters until they reconcile with their families or obtain a new guardian, occasionally only after arranged marriages. "

"On May 15, just weeks before the Saudi authorities lifted the ban on women driving on June 24, authorities began arrests of prominent women’s rights activists and accused several of them of grave crimes like treason that appear to be directly related to their activism.

By November, at least 10 women remain detained without charge, though some anticipated charges could carry prison terms of up to 20 years."

Women in Saudi Arabia have only just recently been allowed to drive. Clearly this country is extremely dominated by their religious beliefs to the point where they have turned half their population into actual slaves. This shit would never happen in a non religious country.

Makes no sense to take the most extremist country as a focal point for a whole religion considering women are allowed to do those mentioned things in other Muslim countries, for example here in Egypt, with Egypt being an important country which name has even been mentioned 4 times in the Quran if I'm not mistaken.
« Last Edit: 08 10, 2020, 06:49:27 pm by OhhKarim »

Offline remaked

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Re: Abortion and your opinion about it
« Reply #24 on: 08 10, 2020, 07:44:10 pm »
It's no mystery that men are just stronger than women which is supported by science
Physically, yes. Mentally, I think it's the opposite. You can look this up and you'll find many sources saying women are a stronger than men mentally, can survive more under stress/extreme situations and can multi-task while not a lot of males can focus on more than 2 things at the same time, and a lot more things...

As for Quran, it's true that it protects women in some verses but it doesn't hide the bigger picture that it clearly states men are superior to women.

Examples:
1- Quran says it's okay to hit women if they disobey you:
Quote
1: Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband’s] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance – [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand. – Surat An-Nisa’ [verse 34]

2- Quran says women have defective  testimony.
Quote
Bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses – so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. – Surat Al-Baqarah [Verse Number 282].

3- Women can't refuse their husbands demand to have sex:
Quote
"If a man calls his wife to his bed and she refuses, and thus he spends the night angry with her, the angels continue cursing her till the morning." – Al-Bukhari and Muslim, the book of forbidden actions.

there are many more but I won't flood this topic even more with religious stuff

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Offline OhhKarim

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Re: Abortion and your opinion about it
« Reply #25 on: 08 10, 2020, 10:53:13 pm »
Physically, yes. Mentally, I think it's the opposite. You can look this up and you'll find many sources saying women are a stronger than men mentally, can survive more under stress/extreme situations and can multi-task while not a lot of males can focus on more than 2 things at the same time, and a lot more things...

I disagree, men are more reasonable in my opinion and usually have a higher average IQ even if it's only a slight difference. STEM sectors contain way more men than women, even in 1st world countries where the "they have to stay at home" argument is thrown out the window. Not to mention that women have hormonal changes during their menstrual cycle due to the fluctuations in estrogen/progesterone levels which probably is the reason for the mood swings of women during menstrual cycles which causes them to act irrational, which men on the other hand do not face which is yet one of the several things men have an advantage above.

As for Quran, it's true that it protects women in some verses but it doesn't hide the bigger picture that it clearly states men are superior to women.

Because like I said, God said he made one of them [the 2 genders] excel the other but we are not allowed to boast about it.



Examples:
1- Quran says it's okay to hit women if they disobey you:
2- Quran says women have defective  testimony.
3- Women can't refuse their husbands demand to have sex:
there are many more but I won't flood this topic even more with religious stuff

"Hit" men are not allowed to hit women in Islam, you're acting as if they are throwing punches yet that's not allowed. Just soft touches like moms do to their children, it's the same way which is also not abuse. And only under certain conditions. English translation often misinterpret words.

Offline Arran

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Re: Abortion and your opinion about it
« Reply #26 on: 09 10, 2020, 11:06:10 am »
I do believe men are created superior but that does not mean women deserve less respect

I do believe humans are created superior but that does not mean animals deserve less respect.
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Offline BlackBear

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Re: Abortion and your opinion about it
« Reply #27 on: 09 10, 2020, 11:12:42 am »
As for Quran, it's true that it protects women in some verses but it doesn't hide the bigger picture that it clearly states men are superior to women.
it's not superior, it's like every gender has its job and duty, the other can't do it. in this verse, the god has put lines for the wives, not for women. it's surely the wives have more duties to care of than a normal woman, also, the god said:
Quote
[first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them.
he didn't say hit them with no reason or hit them with no chance so please take this advice:
And it's best to ask a sheikh/imaam/scholar for religious questions rather than a normal citizen who might not have the best religious understanding.
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Offline BlackBear

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Re: Abortion and your opinion about it
« Reply #28 on: 09 10, 2020, 02:30:41 pm »
Did you just say that MUSLIMS are angry that saudi arabia actually enforces the rules of ISLAM by performing death penalty, chopping off hands, treating women as 3rd class slaves, killing of homosexuals etc. ?
no, I meant we don't like how they apply the freedom out there when the god himself said we all are free. the rules of Islam doesn't include "treating women as 3rd class slaves, killing the homosexuals" but cutting hands is ruled in the Islam plus the death penalty but for the guilty people only because this is the absolute justice but how killing homosexuals is justice? it's not, my god hasn't ordered to kill them. I hope you understand now. the Quran said that being homosexual is forbidden but it doesn't order to kill them, IDK where did you get this idea. I was studying my religion since I was a child, sometimes I felt that Islam isn't right at some points but I changed my mind now and I really agree at what does the Islam say. the Quran is big if I want to explain every verse in it that would take my whole age so if you want some clarification, read some blogs on the internet.
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Re: Abortion and your opinion about it
« Reply #29 on: 09 10, 2020, 02:48:38 pm »
The problem is that we can't agree at what point does the baby actually go from just a blob of cells to have it's own body, is it when the egg is fertilized, is it when it resembles anything like a baby, is it when the heart first starts beating, is it when it has a chance to survive outside the womb?

Some people think it's as soon as an egg is fertilised but logically that is ridiculous because at that point it's so small you wouldn't even be able to see it and these are the same people that think animals can just be slaughtered for food. In fact OhhKarim, you're a defender of killing animals, so why is it immoral to kill an early stage unborn human but not immoral to kill another sentient being of a different species that is born?
Science doesn't have this answer to a clear extent for now, but as for religion... It is stated that after 120 days of conception., angel come and blow soul into the body of fetus and thus we can say it after 120 days fetus is living being. Some say that it is after 40days.
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