Author Topic: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO  (Read 5054 times)

Offline Arran

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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO
« Reply #30 on: 27 12, 2020, 10:38:13 am »
dozens and dozens of lives.

You mean, billions and billions of lives. Most of us wouldn't even be alive right now if we were born before clean water supplies and toilets. I can't find the stats but I'm sure that we had less than 50% chance of surviving past childhood.

While COVID is not a major concern for most people, others can have bad consequences.

Yes, so those people who choose to not care about their health enough to be healthy, can stay the fuck inside. Never in history has the entire population of countries been forced to do things like stay at home and close their businesses because of a virus that only kills unhealthy people. It's because there are obvious agendas in play.
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Offline GoldNugget

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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO
« Reply #31 on: 27 12, 2020, 12:50:42 pm »
Just stop talking on "COVID-19 statistics", it's made up and you won't ever know how many actually died CAUSE of the virus. I even know someone, whos father died recently and someone gave around 100$ to him to confirm that he died cause of COVID-19 and he accepted it cause of the poverty. And many other instances, one of them which comes to my mind is my friends relative who had an emergency called when he had a diabetic seizure, emergency was very very late, cause of the COVID protocol for emergency situations and some other shit, they couldn't aid him in time and passed away in the hospital, from which they also said "this person had COVID and that's why we couldn't help him", while his family was saying that he hadn't been in contact with anyone from outside for months.

In summary, calling and waiting for an emergency in this "pandemic" is nonsense and with any deaths that they can turn into "COVID death case" is a plus for government to make more money.


Offline domi

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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO
« Reply #32 on: 27 12, 2020, 01:15:10 pm »
You mean, billions and billions of lives.


Sure. The word I used can also mean indefinitely large, so I was using it in that sense.

Source: https://www.thefreedictionary.com/dozens



Yes, so those people who choose to not care about their health enough to be healthy, can stay the fuck inside.

You don't choose asthma. You don't choose old age. Some have diabetes based solely on their genetic proflie. I can go on.


Never in history has the entire population of countries been forced to do things like stay at home and close their businesses because of a virus that only kills unhealthy people. It's because there are obvious agendas in play.

Just to be clear: I never said government should close businesses or force people to stay indoors.  I'm a free market libertarian. Rather, i'm just saying that certain groups of people are at risk, vaccination can be useful for them (if they don't have allergies), but we should still wait a few more months to see if any new side effects come up with the current vaccines.


Just stop talking on "COVID-19 statistics", it's made up and you won't ever know how many actually died CAUSE of the virus. I even know someone, whos father died recently and someone gave around 100$ to him to confirm that he died cause of COVID-19 and he accepted it cause of the poverty. And many other instances, one of them which comes to my mind is my friends relative who had an emergency called when he had a diabetic seizure, emergency was very very late, cause of the COVID protocol for emergency situations and some other shit, they couldn't aid him in time and passed away in the hospital, from which they also said "this person had COVID and that's why we couldn't help him", while his family was saying that he hadn't been in contact with anyone from outside for months.

In summary, calling and waiting for an emergency in this "pandemic" is nonsense and with any deaths that they can turn into "COVID death case" is a plus for government to make more money.

So your solution is to ban empirical data, distrust the scientific consensus, and rely on anecdotes like yours for truth?
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Offline Arran

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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO
« Reply #33 on: 27 12, 2020, 01:51:42 pm »
You don't choose asthma. You don't choose old age. Some have diabetes based solely on their genetic proflie. I can go on.

There is no way asthma is natural. It's all about a persons environmental factors. For asthma I'm sure the biggest cause is air pollution and that's not just from cars and factories but idiots who overuse household cleaning chemicals that they harm their lungs as much as a smoker does by inhaling all those chemicals. Houses are full of things which are off-gassing chemicals.

Old age is actually a disease. It's because people are building up toxins, building up deficiencies, simply the bodies maintenance crew just can't keep up with the workload. Interview from AFAIK, the world leader in ageing in reverse, which includes things you can do to extend your lifespan:



So yeah, when COVID19 comes round and you're already down, by choice that is. Old people must obviously want to die otherwise they'd just go online and do a bit of research. There was even an experiment that found old people could rapidly improve their health simply by thinking they were in the time when they were young:

https://www.businessinsider.com/ellen-langers-reversing-aging-experiment-2015-4?op=1&r=US&IR=T

Quote
A week later, both the control group and the experimental group showed improvements in "physical strength, manual dexterity, gait, posture, perception, memory, cognition, taste sensitivity, hearing, and vision," Langer wrote in "Counterclockwise."

So actually the mind plays a role in ageing because everyone else whose old looks old and acts old we believe that is how we will be when we are that old also.
« Last Edit: 27 12, 2020, 01:57:13 pm by Arran »
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Offline GoldNugget

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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO
« Reply #34 on: 27 12, 2020, 02:25:15 pm »
So your solution is to ban empirical data, distrust the scientific consensus, and rely on anecdotes like yours for truth?

No, support and believe scientists blindly and don't use your brain at all, even after many cases of governments using false "scientific researches" to literally make up lies for their own good and misguide every doctor in the world and other non-brainer scientists to think that the research was right.

Opinions like yours are the main indication of how crowds of people blindly perceive the unattained knowledge when they see someone in the uniform or profession is talking. All of this because of how human brain works, social psychology studies show how decision making is affected by numerous factors which then lead to people making poor, non-intuitive and biased decisions. Robert Cialdini's Theory of Influence describes it well in his book Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion.

One of the shortcuts of decision making is based on authority and here is a brief explanation of how it affects people and society:
Quote
Authority
People don’t like being uncertain. We naturally look for and follow authority figures. The problem is that we have a broad definition of what constitutes an authority figure. Uniforms, for example. If we see someone in a white coat at a hospital, we tend to give their medical opinion more weight.

Awareness, courage and intelligence are the factors to determine if something is legitimate or not. But then there comes birdbrained people asking the following question, "so you say that the earth can be flat with your theory". After all, explaining something so complex to people is hard and they'll probably still be on their own beliefs, persuasion.


Offline domi

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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO
« Reply #35 on: 27 12, 2020, 03:46:48 pm »
There is no way asthma is natural. It's all about a persons environmental factors.


You don’t choose the environment where you are born. While asthma is more common in urban settings, you can’t choose your place of birth or other environmental factors that can trigger it. It also  exists in rural settings, so how do you account for that?

Even if I grant that positive thoughts can affect health,  social comparison is ingrained in individuals. We always compare ourselves to others. It’s unhealthy but we do it all the time. Given these natural tendencies, it’s no wonder that people imagine themselves to be old when they reach a certain age. It’s only human to look at other people to gain information from their state.

Again, people don’t choose these natural tendencies. They ride along. Can we really blame them for that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_comparison_theory


Old people must obviously want to die otherwise they'd just go online and do a bit of research.

There ‘s conflicting information online. Most people are not educated enough to distinguish truth from falsehood.

We can see that in this very thread. Younger people are more tech savvy, and yet many of them trust Youtubers more than actual science. Youtubers can confirm their preconceived beliefs and fears, while science is  neutral.  Confirmation bias predicts that people are more likely to believe things that confirm their existing worldview. And that’s what we are seeing here.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ellen-langers-reversing-aging-experiment-2015-4?op=1&r=US&IR=T

It’s cool that she’s been educated at Harvard, but in that same article here’s something important:
Quote

The findings, however, were never actually published in a peer-reviewed journal. And they were never replicated

The experiment hasn’t been replicated. I don’t believe in the epistemological theory of scientism, i.e.. I don’t believe that science is the only way to find out about truth,  but when it comes to this topic,  there’s strong evidence that points in the opposite direction.

For example, if we could affect reality with our minds, then all of us would be multi-millionaires by age 25. Most people dream of making it big, and yet they end up having an average life (nothing wrong with that).

Further, there’s strong evidence that positive thoughts unfortunately don’t help when it comes to curing illness. I’m not going to provide a link so I don’t crush anyone’s dreams, but that’s just the way it is.

No, support and believe scientists blindly and don't use your brain at all, even after many cases of governments using false "scientific researches" to literally make up lies for their own good and misguide every doctor in the world and other non-brainer scientists to think that the research was right.

Opinions like yours are the main indication of how crowds of people blindly perceive the unattained knowledge when they see someone in the uniform or profession is talking. All of this because of how human brain works, social psychology studies show how decision making is affected by numerous factors which then lead to people making poor, non-intuitive and biased decisions. Robert Cialdini's Theory of Influence describes it well in his book Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion.

One of the shortcuts of decision making is based on authority and here is a brief explanation of how it affects people and society:
Awareness, courage and intelligence are the factors to determine if something is legitimate or not. But then there comes birdbrained people asking the following question, "so you say that the earth can be flat with your theory". After all, explaining something so complex to people is hard and they'll probably still be on their own beliefs, persuasion.

First,  scientific consensus =! individual scientists. No one can hijack the scientific consensus for a government agenda. Specialized people create hypotheses, theories and do experiments. And then scientists around the world review the available findings to prove or disprove them. No single government oversees this process.

Second, I have actually read Cialdini's book. You should understand the difference between persuasion and fraud.

People are not retards. They rely on cues in Cialdini’s book because they are mostly useful. Without them, they'd be worse off.

For example, intelligence dictates that you should trust people who are specialized in their line of work. Do you want your gardener to perform an operation on you or someone who has knowledge and experience?
« Last Edit: 27 12, 2020, 05:01:36 pm by domi »
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Offline GoldNugget

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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO
« Reply #36 on: 27 12, 2020, 06:10:54 pm »
First,  scientific consensus =! individual scientists. No one can hijack the scientific consensus for a government agenda. Specialized people create hypotheses, theories and do experiments. And then scientists around the world review the available findings to prove or disprove them. No single government oversees this process.

Second, I have actually read Cialdini's book. You should understand the difference between persuasion and fraud.

People are not retards. They rely on cues in Cialdini’s book because they are mostly useful. Without them, they'd be worse off.

For example, intelligence dictates that you should trust people who are specialized in their line of work. Do you want your gardener to perform an operation on you or someone who has knowledge and experience?

I just couldn't find the article anymore, I saw it few years ago, how US government in past used their medical research in order to make up lies on something which then led to whole world's doctors getting misguided, the case was never publicized by western media and I couldn't even find it on google anymore. That and I believe many other cases when governments consume their authority and mislead everyone only for their favor gives you enough of the indication that the conclusions and findings governmental or even non-governmental research centers make are sometimes not only mistaken, but even made up.

If you read the book then why do you even question ongoing pandemic circumstances to be legit? Everything indicates that the shit has gone too far, destroying small countries economies, instilling fear within society of the "deadly virus which kills thousands of people daily" and completely destroying many people's life with all the useless and brainless stoppages.

Also why did I brought up the theme, you quoted my post where I clearly explained how governments manipulate COVID-19 statistics to keep on pandemic situation for their pockets' favor, which you seem to not believe. I hope that people are finally getting a hang of the current pandemic situation and I expect many will go against the COVID-19 vaccines and other idiotic restrictions soon.


Offline domi

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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO
« Reply #37 on: 27 12, 2020, 06:49:07 pm »
I’m probably more affected than you because of this pandemic.

In any case, I don’t trust governments because they are good for nothing. I trust the scientific consensus instead of unproven Youtube propaganda and herd mentality.

Quote
If you read the book then why do you even question ongoing pandemic circumstances to be legit? Everything indicates that the shit has gone too far, destroying small countries economies, instilling fear within society of the "deadly virus which kills thousands of people daily" and completely destroying many people's life with all the useless and brainless stoppages.

This isn’t the first pandemic that the world has seen. I’m surprised because people didn’t see it coming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics

Hell, 80% of Europe’s population died during the Black Death. Diseases have been part of the human experience since the beginning of time. The 1918 flu pandemic saw similar measures (closing of schools, etc) - not that I support these.
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Offline GoldNugget

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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO
« Reply #38 on: 27 12, 2020, 07:05:45 pm »
I’m probably more affected than you because of this pandemic.

In any case, I don’t trust governments because they are good for nothing. I trust the scientific consensus instead of unproven Youtube propaganda and herd mentality.

This isn’t the first pandemic that the world has seen. I’m surprised because people didn’t see it coming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics

Hell, 80% of Europe’s population died during the Black Death. Diseases have been part of the human experience since the beginning of time. The 1918 flu pandemic saw similar measures (closing of schools, etc) - not that I support these.

I remember the pandemic of H1N1 virus about a decade ago, it was far more lethal than COVID but no one had much of the plans to harvest money off it... Without any evil tries of exaggeration by the authorities the virus lasted about a month, in my country at least. And now what? Soon it'll be year of "COVID pandemic" being a thing? I can't even imagine being such an idiot to believe that.

"2nd WAVE COVID INCOMING, HIDE IN YOUR HOUSES, LOCKDOWN FOR 3 MORE MONTHS. OMG NEW COVID VIRUS IN UK SPOTTED, PREPARE FOR 3RD WAVE, ANOTHER YEAR OF LOCKDOWN IN 2021!!!111 DONT FORGET TO VACCINATE TO MUTATE YOURSELF!!!"   ^-^


Offline domi

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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO
« Reply #39 on: 27 12, 2020, 07:41:06 pm »
The Spanish flu lasted  one and a half years. I think we are past the peak when it comes to COVID, vaccine or not.
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Offline OhhKarim

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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO
« Reply #40 on: 27 12, 2020, 09:41:32 pm »
You don't choose asthma. You don't choose old age. Some have diabetes based solely on their genetic proflie. I can go on.

People also don't choose to be allergic to cats, but that doesn't mean that people need to adapt to you and remove their cat around you, you are the one with the allergy, so you should be the one avoiding cats. Same thing with the virus, if you are part of a group that's likely to be susceptible, then you can avoid people in public, businesses shouldn't be harmed just because of a certain group of the population (which are not the majority of your population anyways).

Offline domi

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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO
« Reply #41 on: 27 12, 2020, 11:40:00 pm »
Can you actually quote where I said that businesses should be closed? Quite the contrary


Just to be clear: I never said government should close businesses or force people to stay indoors.  I'm a free market libertarian. Rather, i'm just saying that certain groups of people are at risk, vaccination can be useful for them (if they don't have allergies), but we should still wait a few more months to see if any new side effects come up with the current vaccines.

« Last Edit: 27 12, 2020, 11:43:46 pm by domi »
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Offline OhhKarim

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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO
« Reply #42 on: 28 12, 2020, 12:09:40 am »
Can you actually quote where I said that businesses should be closed? Quite the contrary

I am talking about your answer to Arran:



He said that people who are afraid about the virus can stay inside the house, do their own lockdown, while the others should be allowed to outside without restrictions if they want to do so [personal freedom] which I agree with. Then you replied with the message above, saying that people can have conditions that are not by choice, such as being of old age, or being diabetic due to genetics, etc. So to that, I answered that personal conditions doesn't mean other people have to adapt to your issues, which I gave an example of, such as being allergic to cats. If someone is allergic to cats, and you go to a place where there are cats, it's your own fault, you should be the one avoiding the cats if you are allergic. Similarly, if you are susceptible to the virus, such as if you are of old age, then you should hold your own lockdown, stay at home. Let someone else order the food and bring it to you with a mask, or if you have to go yourself, take your own measurements, such as social distancing and wearing a mask. Your condition shouldn't prevent or restrict others' freedom, it leads to complete lockdowns which results into businesses having to be closed, which is far more dangerous to the whole society than old people staying at home (and other susceptible people, like diabetic people, people with asthma). Never did I mention that you specifically said businesses should be closed, but it is part of the question and reply that I was talking about.

Offline domi

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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO
« Reply #43 on: 28 12, 2020, 01:49:41 am »
Yes, I don't believe in lockdowns either. They're useless and harm everyone. For example, even after many restrictions, my country almost has  the same number of cases as Sweden, a place that never imposed lockdowns on its population. So our resources were wasted on something that just didn't go over well.

Lockdowns may have worked in China, but those guys have a completely different culture. Their model of combating COVID was not applicable to places like Europe or the US, even though our politicians wanted to make it work. And we don't know if China has misrepresented their COVID situation.
« Last Edit: 28 12, 2020, 01:52:10 am by domi »
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Offline Dimit

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Re: COVID-19 Vaccine: YES/NO
« Reply #44 on: 28 12, 2020, 03:00:32 am »
Lockdowns may have worked in China, but those guys have a completely different culture. Their model of combating COVID was not applicable to places like Europe or the US, even though our politicians wanted to make it work. And we don't know if China has misrepresented their COVID situation.
Lockdown worked in china because everyone actually sticked to their lockdown rules, partially due to their higher discipline, by state force but also because people dont have so many platforms there where people like oohkarim, arran, matt alfa, goldnugget etc can share different kinds of relativizing stuff, misleading information, alternate facts or even some conspiracy theories, with goldnugget knowing a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy, or where oohkarim doesnt even understand the concept of a vaccine and herd immunity, and then you have to technically open a seperate debate topic for each of these posts, so instead I just share a few pictures which are simple to understand and give everyone on this topic the ability to understand this virus before getting the impression by the posts on this topic that it is "not dangerous"








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