Author Topic: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?  (Read 1735 times)

Online remaked

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #30 on: 15 02, 2021, 09:54:34 pm »
Even if you are a law abiding citizen and when you first bought the gun your only intention was to use it for self defense it's gonna raise your motivation to use that gun even in stupid fights because it's just available next to you and anger might get the best of you. If you are afraid of people robbing your house, make a decent security system and pay for insurance and let the robber take whatever he wants and if you live in a decent country you will get back every cent you lost. And even if guns were to be allowed, there should be requirements like a background check before you purchase and a necessary training period to teach you how to properly use a gun so you don't shoot yourself while trying to kick the robber out of your house. Even then, bringing such dangerous tools into your life is a huge risk if you aren't responsible enough.
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Offline Dimit

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #31 on: 16 02, 2021, 09:55:10 am »
Dimit, it would be interesting if you showed a graph involving Latin America where gun ownership is strictly controlled.. We would see very interesting homicide rates.

In Latin America, criminals easily get guns (because they do illegal things, duh), but civilians have a tougher time obtaining firearm to defend themselves. Along with govt corruption, it's one of the reasons why criminals basically rule these nations.
Then fix these countries as a whole
As shown in all graphs above, arming up the citizens wont make these any countries safer and the starving people in the favelas will continue to shoot people up no matter if a few wealthy people have a pistol under their bed or not, it wont help you when you have a gun pointed at your head, and also (obviously) none of the poverty issues in brazil get solved with more civilian guns




Again Dimit using "firearm deaths" per 100k people rather than homicide rates perk 100k people. Czech Republic & Cyprus, both having very relaxed weapon laws, are from the lowest homicide rates in Europe regardless of the fact that a lot of other European countries do not allow weapons to citizens.
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I have already debunked that argument 2 times now and you still keep repeating the same thing by talking about "homicide rates" instead of firearm deaths and you also keep bringing up switzerland and czech republic which both have very low gun ownership rates.

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And for your information, the (slightly increased) numbers in switzerland are based on the fact that switzerland is a highly militarized country where trained soldiers can take take their weapons home as private weapon after ending their military service which is signficicant in a country where almost everyone joins the military, and the country also has a traditional gun culture where a large part of the population is doing some kind of shooting sport in organized associations called "Sch├╝tzenvereine" and they strongly regulated and professional. Besides that, you cant just randomly get a license and buy a gun in switzerland, and you also can not randomly walk around with it. No idea why you are trying to compare this to an underdeveloped country (USA) where everyone can buy guns at walmart  :fp:


Quote
It shows that people will get guns regardless if its legal or not, criminals don't care about the law, if they have the intention to kill, they will get the weapons via any means, even it's illegal. And the graph above proves that even if guns are illegal to citizens, the homicide rates can still be high as criminals will use any tools to kill, whether that would be a knife, a crowbar, etc. Without giving guns to the good guys (law abiding citizens), those citizens will not stand a chance against someone with a gun.
And that doesnt happen in countries where weapons are not available to everyone and everywhere, again another argument thats instantly getting debunked

No offence but idk why you want to keep carrying on a debate by force when you simply cant win it because there are no arguments in your favour
« Last Edit: 16 02, 2021, 09:57:02 am by Dimit »
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Offline OhhKarim

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #32 on: 16 02, 2021, 04:56:48 pm »
I have already debunked that argument 2 times now and you still keep repeating the same thing by talking about "homicide rates" instead of firearm deaths

Explain why? Because obviously it proves that even when weapons are harder to get access to, the amount of people dying by criminals doesn't necessarily increase. Which is being proven when many other European countries have a higher homicide rate than Czech Republic, and Cyprus, regardless of their relaxed weapon laws. So you didn't debunk anything, I debunked your argument a long time ago about the gun-related graphs, but you are keen on continuously posting the same stuff, while blaming others of doing so.

and you also keep bringing up switzerland and czech republic which both have very low gun ownership rates.

And this is simply just incorrect information. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Denmark 9.9
Homicide rate (2017): 1.20

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017):  Germany 19.6   
Homicide rate (2017): 1.00

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Spain 7.5
Homicide rate (2017): 0.70

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Cyprus   34.0
Homicide rate (2017): 0.60

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Czech Republic 12.5   
Homicide rate (2017): 0.60

I can post many more countries, but they're already visible in the link posted above. I took a few examples to prove it already, Denmark and Spain have less weapons per 100 people, yet higher homicide rates, Denmark even has double the homicide rates of both the Czech Republic and Cyprus. In fact, many countries that do not allow weapons to citizens, have higher homicide rates. This is evidence as to why your gun-related homicide graphs are useless, it's about the total homicide deaths that matter. Which even though these countries have more relaxed gun laws, and more guns per 100 citizens, there is less homicides in the country. So yet again I've debunked your claims.



Offline DeathWish

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #33 on: 16 02, 2021, 05:20:59 pm »
Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Denmark 9.9
Homicide rate (2017): 1.20

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017):  Germany 19.6   
Homicide rate (2017): 1.00

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Spain 7.5
Homicide rate (2017): 0.70

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Cyprus   34.0
Homicide rate (2017): 0.60

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Czech Republic 12.5   
Homicide rate (2017): 0.60


Why are you using fake stats? or IDK where you brought your stats from but they for sure ain't correct at all
here let me give you the real stats

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Denmark 9.9
Homicide rate (2017): 0.16

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017):  Germany 19.6   
Homicide rate (2017): 0.1

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Spain 7.5
Homicide rate (2017): 0.13

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Cyprus   34.0
Homicide rate (2017): 0.46

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Czech Republic 12.5   
Homicide rate (2017): 0.18

Cyprus has 2 times or more the amount of guns and also has 2 times the amount of homicide rate from firearms (don't use all homicide rates unless you don't know that there are other ways to commit homicide)

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/homicide-rates-from-firearms?tab=chart&country=USA~DNK~DEU~ESP~CYP~CZE&region=Europe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country





Dude you are using too many wrong statistics to prove your point you have 0 truthful evidence that you brought with no sources at all. You should reevaluate your position here and cut your losses and leave this debate because unless you use trustworthy sites like the ones I just put above you are saying words without backing them up with proofs

@Dimit and I have brought you so many graphs that include sources and actual stats that contains firearms only not every kind of homicide while you brought us words, manipulated statistics, and more empty words I believe there should be some kind of rules against this kind of stuff
« Last Edit: 16 02, 2021, 05:25:40 pm by DeathWish »

Offline Dimit

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #34 on: 16 02, 2021, 05:33:47 pm »
(don't use all homicide rates unless you don't know that there are other ways to commit homicide)
He wont understand the difference no matter how many times we point it out here
By the way it doesnt even rly matter if he uses the normal homicide rates or the homicide rates by gun violence because the normal homicide rate in the US is still many times higher than in developed european countries and 2/3rd of of the deaths in the US are caused by gun violence as shown in my last post




And this is simply just incorrect information. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Denmark 9.9
Homicide rate (2017): 1.20

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017):  Germany 19.6   
Homicide rate (2017): 1.00

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Spain 7.5
Homicide rate (2017): 0.70

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Cyprus   34.0
Homicide rate (2017): 0.60

Estimate of civilian firearms per 100 persons (2017): Czech Republic 12.5   
Homicide rate (2017): 0.60

I can post many more countries, but they're already visible in the link posted above. I took a few examples to prove it already, Denmark and Spain have less weapons per 100 people, yet higher homicide rates, Denmark even has double the homicide rates of both the Czech Republic and Cyprus. In fact, many countries that do not allow weapons to citizens, have higher homicide rates. This is evidence as to why your gun-related homicide graphs are useless, it's about the total homicide deaths that matter. Which even though these countries have more relaxed gun laws, and more guns per 100 citizens, there is less homicides in the country. So yet again I've debunked your claims.
All of these ownership numbers are low, and so are the homicide rates, so that litereally speaks against your argument and only proves once more that low firearm ownership rates result in low homicide rates

Btw cyprus number of firearms per 100 persons is slightly higher, just like switzerland, due to hunters and army veterans being allowed to keep their weapons at home, again something that has nothing to do with giving large numbers of random people guns for self-protection


By the way, germany had a school shooting in 2009 where 15 people were killed because someone took the gun of his father (licensed and trained gun owner), another great example of how private gun ownership doesnt work
« Last Edit: 16 02, 2021, 05:40:39 pm by Dimit »
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Offline OhhKarim

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #35 on: 16 02, 2021, 05:43:39 pm »
Why are you using fake stats? or IDK where you brought your stats from but they for sure ain't correct at all

What the hell are you saying dude? I've posted sources of all my statistics. I'm literally using the same sources as one of my previous replies, here again let me show you:



And here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

So don't tell me I'm using wrong info, when you just cannot comprehend basic information. You are using different statistics, "FIREARM RELATED HOMICIDES" while I am using "HOMICIDE RATES" statistics, maybe now in capitalized letters it is more obvious for you. Now for the reason, which I've already posted like twice before:

Explain why? Because obviously it proves that even when weapons are harder to get access to, the amount of people dying by criminals doesn't necessarily increase. Which is being proven when many other European countries have a higher homicide rate than Czech Republic, and Cyprus, regardless of their relaxed weapon laws. So you didn't debunk anything, I debunked your argument a long time ago about the gun-related graphs, but you are keen on continuously posting the same stuff, while blaming others of doing so.

I can post many more countries, but they're already visible in the link posted above. I took a few examples to prove it already, Denmark and Spain have less weapons per 100 people, yet higher homicide rates, Denmark even has double the homicide rates of both the Czech Republic and Cyprus. In fact, many countries that do not allow weapons to citizens, have higher homicide rates. This is evidence as to why your gun-related homicide graphs are useless, it's about the total homicide deaths that matter. Which even though these countries have more relaxed gun laws, and more guns per 100 citizens, there is less homicides in the country. So yet again I've debunked your claims.

You have no rebuttal to my facts and that's why you tried to say I am using "fake info" but fortunately, it's not fake info, and I have posted all my sources.

Offline DeathWish

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #36 on: 16 02, 2021, 06:13:29 pm »
What the hell are you saying dude? I've posted sources of all my statistics. I'm literally using the same sources as one of my previous replies, here again let me show you:

You are manipulating your statistics for your own convenience but using homicide rates for gun-related issues
but sure you all claim guns make you safe and make criminals wanting less and less to rob houses or armed robbery whatever bullshit you come with but the fact remains the US has the highest homicide rate for a 1st world country? so what is your excuse now?

source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/intentional-homicides-per-100000-people?time=2016&country=DEU~USA

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #37 on: 17 02, 2021, 12:03:20 pm »
The question itself is very complex and leaves additional ones unanswered. I will talk about one in detail.

Let's say we distinguish good and bad citizens. What makes a citizen good or bad? Even a self-defending person can make a bad choice and shoot when he feels threatened, however, there is nothing serious happening around him. Let's say this person is mentally ill and overreact interactions that are made towards him, so based on that, would we consider him a bad citizen due to misjudging the situation, bearing arms while being ill or a good one as he had good manners and was one respecting the rules during his life yet couldn't see other options other than pulling a trigger? He tried to act as good as he can, for example, in Hungary, that's not an excuse for homicide if you were not in danger (however, being mentally ill may lighten your sentence.)

From my point of view, firearms should be allowed, however, on top of being a good citizen, you should also meet certain criterias to make that happen that are for example having no prior criminal record and being mentally fit to own firearms.

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #38 on: 17 02, 2021, 06:36:43 pm »
The question itself is very complex

Yes this debate should have focussed on a specific part because I seem to be the only one that notices the freedom part of the debate and most of it seems to be arguing about gun deaths per country so if this debate isn't about freedom it should state what part is to be debated like "Does higher gun ownership increase or decrease safety?"
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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #39 on: 21 02, 2021, 04:09:15 pm »
You are manipulating your statistics for your own convenience but using homicide rates for gun-related issues

You messed up your sentence:

*You are manipulating your statistics for your own convenience by using a certain portion of the homicide rates, the firearm related homicides.

Yes this debate should have focussed on a specific part because I seem to be the only one that notices the freedom part of the debate and most of it seems to be arguing about gun deaths per country so if this debate isn't about freedom it should state what part is to be debated like "Does higher gun ownership increase or decrease safety?"

True, we all went on a tangent. The reason is that they kept involving some false claims which have been debunked several times already by me. Whether more guns make us safer or not, which it does, I believe it within our rights to have the option to own a firearm. I don't know if I would agree with owning an AR-15, not that I am completely against it, however pistols I would totally agree.

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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #40 on: 21 02, 2021, 04:51:06 pm »
Yes this debate should have focussed on a specific part because I seem to be the only one that notices the freedom part of the debate and most of it seems to be arguing about gun deaths per country so if this debate isn't about freedom it should state what part is to be debated like "Does higher gun ownership increase or decrease safety?"

My position is simple.

If you are legally allowed to own a firearm, and you want to own one, you should be able.
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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #41 on: 12 03, 2021, 04:51:12 am »
While we keep arguing over and over on this controversial issue, no action has been taken to stop the killing of innocent people and children by a gunman. The mass shooting has been recorded in any place and anywhere in the United States. It is unequaled the number of mass domestic violence we experience nowadays in the United States. No one is safe regardless of where you are.

I have witnessed gun shootouts indoors or outdoors in a different country. Even now in some countries that do have the legality of a gun, people still had to die for no reason. And I think having it legal in some countries will get it worst since it doesn't mean you're safe when you have it. Do you think having a legal gun will make you safe? Of course, in my opinion, it will just make it worst since some people can make you a target for having it, they might think you have something to protect that is why you have those legal firearms. So it does not matter if citizens are legal to have one or illegal. It has the same output.
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Re: Should citizens be allowed to own a firearm?
« Reply #42 on: 17 03, 2021, 06:41:46 pm »
In my opinion of this debate i'd say it would be a great idea allowing Citizens to use firearms but of course they should use it for a good reason, its obviously that there can be a thief in your house and he entered somehow and that thief own a gun and you dont own one how is this Citizen will defend his self for avoid a death.

Its obviously that if you own a weapon and there's a thief on your house you're able to use the gun for self defense someone who own a gun will obviously use it and wouldnt let the thief to use his weapons/melee into that Citizen, I agree on allowing citizens to own firearms.

In the case of this civilian, a robber was going closer to him and luckily the civilian is that he has his weapon ready to shoot while the robber's gun wasn't ready to shoot.

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